NonVet American Legion Riders

[jaxbobg]

What has people up in arms is a little vague ... but regardless, everyone has their opinion, and it seems to me from what I glean from the OP, the issue should be with the American Legions rules, not the individuals wearing said patches, as it appears that wearing of said patch is totally authorized by the American Legion. At least that is my take, but I've been wrong before.

Well stated. Since the National Commander approves the AL Riders program on a state by state basis, the rules for types of patches and rockers and their placement can be found in the Rider's Manual for your State.

I have read the manual for Florida, but haven't compared it to the rest of them.
Apparently the OP, IATRIKEBOB, lives in Iowa, so for his benefit and enlightenment, I hereby present a link to the American Legion of Iowa, Rider's section:

http://www.ialegion.org/legion_riders.htm

(I still don't see what all of the fuss is about)

[hogcowboy]

Thanks skuuter. Looks like there has been a "failure to communicate" to quote Cool Hand Luke.

I live in a Navy town and joined the Legion because I meet their eligibility requirements as a "Sons Of The American Legion". I follow the Legion rules and local Post Commander guidelines.

I don't qualify to join the VFW or Fleet Reserve, but have always been welcomed as a guest at the various posts in this area. All I have to do is sign the guest book by the front door and show my AL membership card when requested.

I worked in the DOD as a civilian contractor for 6 years after college. So I'm not a veteran. But I did work along side the enlisted desk jockeys in the Pentagon and various military bases,

I am totally amazed why that could possibly be offensive to any active or former service person.

I spent 3 years working for the Army and Air Force Exchange Service too but that doesn't make me a vet. I worked with them and had to follow all base rules and saw the young eager to kick butt come home old men. So I do understand how the OP could have an ax to grind. And like I've stated, things can be changed. It's a long haul but it can be done.

I personally would have no problem with a difference in patches. What I did with the Son's patch was my way and I've seen other Legionnaires with a patch or patches that say vet and/or what battle ground. Most with service dates as part of the patch. Would really like to know just what burr it is that the OP is frustrated with though. He may find he's not alone.

[FuzzyWuzHe]

As a Navy vet, I really appreciated the "civilian" support personnel, they were a valuable part of our team. We couldn't of accomplished our missions without them. From shipyard personnel to the guys who got us paid. We needed them all. I doubt there's vet out there that wouldn't agree with that.

Here's one of many examples. We were in the Mediterranean with a tech rep from a turbine company helping us troubleshoot a leak on our main. You might remember when there was a suicide bomber blew up the airport in Beirut with a truck bomb, killing lots of Marines and burying many more in rubble, we got called to provide gun fire support and to send personnel ashore to help dig for survivors. This tech rep was offered a helo off, but opted to stay with us to fix the issue. While on station, shooting and guys ashore digging out survivors (me among them), we had another suicide bomber in a speed boat attempt to blow us up, fortunately our gunners mates made short work of it at between 100 and 150 meters with a 50 cal. My point is, that tech rep was in harms way with us, no combat pay.

He don't get credit for being a vet, but he sure was a true American. He helped us fix the leak and smiled saying he's done lots of these but never while under attack or while attacking ...

I for one would like to offer my big thanks for all my civilian brothers that made it possible to complete our missions.

[hogcowboy]

[dirtdobber]

To the OP, all you need to do is bring it up at a meeting. Then a decision will be awarded, a vote will determine the outcome.I to oppose sons wearing the legion patch. All of them I have been to doesn't allow the sons to wear a legion patch.

[IATRIKEBOB]

I like the idea of seeing if it can brought up for a vote. My other thought is to have different color patches for Vets, Sons, and Auxiliary. It may seem trivial to some, but I realize you may serve on committees, participate in activities, etc. BUT...you're not a Veteran.

[mtn rider]

I joined the merchant marine fleet in 1965 in support of the troops in Viet Nam. I rode the bomb ships loaded with 6000 tons of explosives up the river to Saigon for 5 years as a civilian. I always felt there was no difference between us and the military personal we supported until I came home in 1970. It was at that point I was made aware that there was a real difference between a civilian and enlisted personal. We spent our days in harms way, took rocket attacks, sniper fire, provided safe lodging and meals to the GI'S ect, only to be told to find some other place to hang out because your a "civilian" when we came home.
As a civilian in combat your always wanted and appreciate until you come home and then your only a "civilian"".
Just a little disgruntled to say the least.

[2006gold]

I joined the merchant marine fleet in 1965 in support of the troops in Viet Nam. I rode the bomb ships loaded with 6000 tons of explosives up the river to Saigon for 5 years as a civilian. I always felt there was no difference between us and the military personal we supported until I came home in 1970. It was at that point I was made aware that there was a real difference between a civilian and enlisted personal. We spent our days in harms way, took rocket attacks, sniper fire, provided safe lodging and meals to the GI'S ect, only to be told to find some other place to hang out because your a "civilian" when we came home.
As a civilian in combat your always wanted and appreciate until you come home and then your only a "civilian"".
Just a little disgruntled to say the least.

Then they got it wrong. My dad was Merchant Marine in WWII. (BTW, did you know that the Merchant Marine suffered more casualties per capita than any branch of the military during WWII?). Anyway, he was with MacArthur during the Philippine invasion where Jap bombs split seams on his ship. The captain beached the ship to keep it from sinking.

They were carrying essential cargo (beer), then to Sicily after sailing back to SF alone. One interesting thing. While at Gibralter they woke up one morning to find a German U-Boat sitting next to them that wanted to surrender. During war, Merchant Marine are vets in my book.

[jaxbobg]

So...all of the emotional rhetoric aside, the big problem here seems to be that the OP and several other riders are unfamiliar with the purpose and objectives of the Legion Riders program. If the OP disagrees with the rules and guidelines, this is the wrong forum for your complaint.

The April 3, 2015 ALR National Message is quite clear. It states:

"1. Patch wear and uniformity of ALR clothing and apparel. The American Legion has long held the position that patch wear is an intensely personal statement by our members, similar in tradition to the right side of the Legion Cap itself. Generally, we should not tell a Rider how to arrange his or her patches, or what they can or cannot wear, unless such arrangement or display brings discredit upon the ALR program, implies an improper association with an outside organization, or infringes on our trademarks. If ALR chapters or department programs wish to adopt a uniform dress code for vests and patches, that is their decision. National will not mandate a dress code other than to take the appropriate action to protect the trademarks of the organization."

(Note to OP: the above italics are mine. Email your objections to AL Internal Affairs through this link: www.legion.org/contact/internal-affairs and maybe they'll request a change to the ALR resolutions to accommodate your concerns.)

Let's do a quick review (see the official web site http://www.legion.org ) of the membership rules, etc.

On October 17-18, 2007, the National Committee of the AL approved Resolution 35, "American Legion Riders as a National Program".

Following are a couple of quotes:

"The purpose of ALR is to use their common interest and association to promote the aims and purposes of The American Legion as well as the promotion of motorcycle safety and awareness."

"All members of The American Legion Riders shall be current members of The American Legion, American Legion Auxiliary or Sons of The American Legion"

"The only recognized The American Legion Rider logo is that which is copyrighted and sold through The American Legion National Emblem sales "

That being said, the program guidance states that "All ALR members shall strive to maintain the image of The American Legion, at all times upholding The American Legion name and emblem, which symbolizes the integrity and principles of this great organization." ...

ALR is not a motorcycle club, so there is no obligation to wear identifying clothing or patches. ... contact your department headquarters or neighboring chapters for guidance regarding the wear of the main ALR patch and other decorations on the vest and apparel.

Why is there so much discrimination and bigotry in this country? Are that many people so self-centered and egotistical that they think theirs is the only opinion that counts and everyone else is an idiot?

[FuzzyWuzHe]

I joined the merchant marine fleet in 1965 in support of the troops in Viet Nam. I rode the bomb ships loaded with 6000 tons of explosives up the river to Saigon for 5 years as a civilian. I always felt there was no difference between us and the military personal we supported until I came home in 1970. It was at that point I was made aware that there was a real difference between a civilian and enlisted personal. We spent our days in harms way, took rocket attacks, sniper fire, provided safe lodging and meals to the GI'S ect, only to be told to find some other place to hang out because your a "civilian" when we came home.
As a civilian in combat your always wanted and appreciate until you come home and then your only a "civilian"".
Just a little disgruntled to say the least.

I for one, and I'll bet many of my fellow "Vets" truly appreciate your SERVICE to your country, after all that's what it's all about. We only succeed when we all work together. That's what has always made this country great, the way everyone comes together in a crisis.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[rhino 2]

Just for curiosity What was the pay scale for a Civilian in Nam, Ca. 1966..?
My pay as an 11b20.. Was about 175$ +/- a month less deductions for insurance and tax..
But I did get free postage, free ''C''s and all the ammo I could shoot' no charge....
And my starting pay state side' Ca. 1965 was about 93$ dollars a month..

[IATRIKEBOB]

Just for curiosity What was the pay scale for a Civilian in Nam, Ca. 1966..?
My pay as an 11b20.. Was about 175$ +/- a month less deductions for insurance and tax..
But I did get free postage, free ''C''s and all the ammo I could shoot' no charge....
And my starting pay state side' Ca. 1965 was about 93$ dollars a month..

As an E-2 in 71 I made $137.10 per month, then I got separate rats, and flight pay.

[mtn rider]

I'm surprised you asked that question! Never once in the 5 years I hauled explosives in to that God forsaken country did the VC ever ask me my pay scale before he shot at us. I really don't see how this pay scale plays a part in who was in harms way.
End of discussion on my part.

[jaxbobg]

DOD records show that 16 percent of the personnel on the ground in Vietnam were civilians. They provided support for supplies, weaponry, ammo, medical services, equipment maintenance, communications, logistics, housing, and other essential services. Many of these folks were killed, wounded, MIA and POW with no service benefits other than transport back home.

Many thousands more served the military stateside in all branches of the service. We weren't defectors, long-haired hippies, or protestors. We worked our butts off every day for the men and women deployed in combat.

I could have gotten a 15% increase in pay by jumping to a job other than support of the military, but chose not to do so.

My sincere thanks to the Veterans who appreciate the contributions made by civilians like myself. I have no regrets.

[hogcowboy]

I could have increased my pay more than that. $35 a week working for A&AFES. That had to pay rent and utilities, fuel and groceries. 3 years later I did change finally to a $101 a week job that still supported the military. I just didn't have direct contact anymore. I respect those that served. But I do think someone is missing the bigger picture. Most I actually had contact with were very eager to see the supplies I was bringing to base stores. Little did I know I would be shunned today. Guess if you live long enough you learn just about anything.

[Retired Army]

In Indiana you have to be a member of the American Legion to be a member of the American Legion Riders. What this means is that some non vets do belong. All however do their part to participate in fund raisers which go to vets in one form or another. American Legion Riders forever and may all wear the colors. This includes an American flag on the front of the vest.

[FuzzyWuzHe]

I'm sorry ... I don't see what difference a uniform makes when it comes to serving your country, or pay scale ... what ever happened to "all sacrificed, some sacrificed all" ... Bottom line .. we are all Americans ... what's the problem?

[hogcowboy]

PTSD comes in many forms. Could it be.......



Most veterans at our post have "Veteran" as part of their back patch. Some add "Vietnam" or "Iraq". Is that not something the OP has considered? Or is that too simple? I truly understand wanting to be acknowledged and these are an effort some find achieves that.

[Retired Army]

Perhaps a better question might be, is not being a vet and wearing the colors of a predominately vet organization considered stolen valor? I consider any person that donates time to better the lot of a vet as a patriot, not a stealer of valor. The director of the Kokomo Legion Riders is the daughter of a vet and one of the best administrators I have had the pleasure to work with. This is the reason the members elected her.

[VSTriker]

At my post, the non vets wear a patch on the back of their vests that says squadron. Not sure of the significance, but it designates a non veteran.