A Couple of days with a Milwaukee-Eight Freewheeler...

[Fozworth]

My 16 is still like new with 7,000 miles on it. I've added a bumper, luggage rack, back rest, tank lift and cooling wings from DK Custom.

Perhaps I need some quotes from a few other dealers if you got a much better offer for your '16.

[Capt.Bob]

I shared with Brian that you can go to: seedealercost.com and look under the PowerSports section to see what the dealer cost and list prices were for the 2016/2017 TGU's and FW's. This gives one a better starting point in deciding how to negotiate with a dealer. There are plenty of Harleys being made so you just have to be patient and fair minded and you will end up with deals that are mutually beneficial for buyer/seller.

[Fozworth]

I shared with Brian that you can go to: seedealercost.com and look under the PowerSports section to see what the dealer cost and list prices were for the 2016/2017 TGU's and FW's. This gives one a better starting point in deciding how to negotiate with a dealer. There are plenty of Harleys being made so you just have to be patient and fair minded and you will end up with deals that are mutually beneficial for buyer/seller.

Truthfully, after almost agreeing to the 2017 purchase I've gotten discouraged.

Here is what I hoped:

1. The trade cost would be less than quoted for a 2016 with 7,000 miles.
2. I would be convinced that the heat issues both felt and engine damaging heat would be gone. (Other forum reports are mixed as to if the heat is gone or not).
3. The new engine would not be using the "plastic" cam chain pad that has been reported to break down and do damage in the TC bikes. (Pictures I've seen are still showing some "plastic" as being there. I assume (but do not know) it can still break down and end up in the engine oil.

I was once all excited about jumping to the M8......now, not so much.

Maybe 2018 Kevin will tell me what to do. lol

[Capt.Bob]

Truthfully, after almost agreeing to the 2017 purchase I've gotten discouraged.

Here is what I hoped:

1. The trade cost would be less than quoted for a 2016 with 7,000 miles.
2. I would be convinced that the heat issues both felt and engine damaging heat would be gone. (Other forum reports are mixed as to if the heat is gone or not).
3. The new engine would not be using the "plastic" cam chain pad that has been reported to break down and do damage in the TC bikes. (Pictures I've seen are still showing some "plastic" as being there. I assume (but do not know) it can still break down and end up in the engine oil.

I was once all excited about jumping to the M8......now, not so much.

Maybe 2018 Kevin will tell me what to do. lol

Brian, Can't address the trade issues because that is really between you and the sellers you choose to deal with. However, many engine designs have to use some kind of material that may be a kind of polymer (?) to maintain chain tensions. The earlier materials Harley used did have a tendency to wear prematurely in part due to rough chains and/or inferior cam chain tensioner pad material. Harley has high level engineers who I am pretty sure have solved the cam chain tensioner material issues.

In terms of running hot, the M8 engine is going to be Harley's flagship lump for likely the next 12-15 years so I wouldn't think that there would be dramatic changes to the platform for the foreseeable future? Perception of heat is a really individual thing and everyone seems to experience it quite differently. Sort of the same as the shape of saddles where everyone has preferences and the factories have a pretty hard time pleasing an awful lot of their customers with their stock seats. Sorry that your current journey has been discouraging. I think the one dealer contact you had mentioned probably significantly soured you, given what they were proposing as a trade difference. Much good riding and enjoying whatever trike you ride. They are a hoot!

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin, I wish I was not so paranoid about my warranty given that the M8 in the Tri Glide actually runs slower at top end than my 2016 TC103 did due to how the two engines make power. For the braver folks that get some direction from folks like yourself and get a decent tune, I think the M8 has the potential to be a screamer. Thankfully, I have a super-fast race car that will allow me all the speed kicks I need but am a bit surprised on how fast the M8 TGU runs out of steam. Downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option because of the torque/power curves you have shown of the engine. I remember last year out West, high up in the mountains, having to downshift my TC103 TGU to maintain speed going up some very steep mountains with 80mph posted speed limits.

Yeah, the M8 makes it's power early, and stays very level in top power for a longer time (wider RPM band) than the Twin Cam. With the Twinkie, we are used to the power coming on strong a bit later (and more abruptly) in the RPM's and being there for a narrower RPM band, so you can really feel the power come on. The M8, it is always just there...there is no real bump where you feel it come on.

We are early into the process of milking more power out of the M8, but I really believe there is quite a bit of potential.

We already have seen a glimpse of it with the dyno runs (and street riding) we did on Jacks Freewheeler. With the 636v and a base map, we were seeing 100 ft lbs. This is with the stock exhaust and no auto-tuning or dyno tuning.

The best we ever got out of a Twin Cam, with a Performance Plus Stage I, was 105 ft. lbs. I think the M8 has the potential to exceed that, AND have that power for a much wider rpm band.
Of course, guys doing Stage II, III, & IV's, I would think, are going to get some really great results out of the M8. Because of warranty issues, we generally don't go there. We've never seen a warranty denied due to one of our Stage I's, but we see Stage II & up getting warranty work denied on a regular basis.

Truthfully, after almost agreeing to the 2017 purchase I've gotten discouraged.

Here is what I hoped:

1. The trade cost would be less than quoted for a 2016 with 7,000 miles.
2. I would be convinced that the heat issues both felt and engine damaging heat would be gone. (Other forum reports are mixed as to if the heat is gone or not).
3. The new engine would not be using the "plastic" cam chain pad that has been reported to break down and do damage in the TC bikes. (Pictures I've seen are still showing some "plastic" as being there. I assume (but do not know) it can still break down and end up in the engine oil.

I was once all excited about jumping to the M8......now, not so much.

Maybe 2018 Kevin will tell me what to do. lol

Hi Brian,

1. Trade ins/new purchases are just a matter of a lot of phone work. Got to find a dealer who is motivated to make the transaction you are after....At the time when you are ready to execute.

2. Felt heat is definitely, significantly lower on the M8's. Actual engine temps do not appear to be much lower, but the M8 does a much better job of dissipating the heat than the Twin Cams. I think it is still important to cool it down for longevity.

3. Many years ago HD took care of the cam tensioner problem the earlier Twin Cams had. So unless they went backwards, I don't think it will be a problem with the M8.

Of course, the M8 is so new, it is not possible to know what the future holds as far as issues that may or may not arise. HD's warranty is very good and if it fit my overall plan, I would not hesitate to get an M8 right now.

Conversely, I don't think, for everyday riding, that there is anything wrong with the Twin Cam, once you get the known issue of heat taken care of.

So that leaves one with the question of why go to an M8 from a Twin Cam?

My own personal thoughts on this-

Not for heat. For less money than going to the M8, the heat can be corrected on a Twin Cam.

Not for more power in everyday typical riding. The Twin Cam with a good Stage I has enough power to ride well past the speed limits on any roads I know of in the USA. The only exception to this is if one is pulling a trailer with a heavy load and does not want to use the gears so much, then an M8 has an advantage there.

Not for the slightly improved suspension. For far less $ than the cost of upgrading to an M8, one can improve the Twin Cam Suspension to be far superior to the M8 suspension.

So what reasons are there?

The M8 has less vibration at an idle, and when accelerating thru the gears...some will like this, others won't.

The M8 has a broader powerband, which means less shifting is necessary to have access to full power...some will like this, others won't.

If one wants more power (their typical riding is way above what many would call everyday riding) the M8 looks to have more potential.

If one likes the feel of brute torque, the M8 is going to deliver that more than the Twin Cam. There is no practical riding reason for this, it is just more fun for some folks.

If one plays around a lot...wheelies, burn-outs, hard low speed acceleration...the Twin Cam crankshaft is vulnerable to twisting. The M8 is supposed to have that taken care of...time will tell. This is NOT an issue on the Twin Cams for 99.5% of the riders.

Another reason, that I've heard more than a few people give, is that they don't want to do the work of getting rid of the felt heat on the Twin Cam, and they don't really care about the heat that the engine experiences, so they get an M8 with less felt heat...and if there is a problem with the engine because of heat, they have a warranty.

The last reason I can think of...if one just wants to have the newest technology, the "latest & greatest", the M8 is the latest from HD.

I personally will be getting an M8 for three reasons:

1. I like the feel of torque. The more the better. Has no practical reason, it's just fun to me.

2. I'm a bit of a gearhead, so new mechanical stuff is always interesting to me.

3. For the business, we need one for continuing product development. For this reason alone, I would already have one, but am thinking there may be other changes with the '18 model year, so am waiting for that.

wow, that was a bit long winded...and I did not tell you what to do. But did share with you some info so you can make a more informed decision.

Since this post is already a book, might as well add some more info.

I will not own a Twin Cam, OR an M8 without a warranty. Way too many things that can go wrong that are expensive.

Besides my Tri-Glide I own a Twin Cam Softail. I do not intend on "upgrading" it to an M8 when the M8 Softails are available. My TC Softail does everything I want it to do, and I have it personalized exactly how I want it.

I also own two Sportster. Don't have a warranty on either, and would not get one. They are 20+ year old technology that is proven and has no issues that the new TC's & M8's have.

Kevin

[Jack Klarich]

Well he posted a few times that he was getting 55MPG before you worked on his trike..

So it would be interesting now...

It did go down a mile and a half per gallon if that makes sense

[mythplaced]

HERE[/URL], is the following, which is in keeping with the Magnuson-Moss Act is how they address a limitation of the HD Warranty in regards to non HD parts:

Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail.

Kevin,

Perhaps I misunderstand, I read the link you supplied, and it reads,

"EXCLUSIONS"

This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle.

1. Which has not been operated or maintained as specified in the owner's manual.
   
2. Which has been abused, neglected, misused, improperly stored, used "off the highway," or used for racing or competition of any kind.
   
3. Which is not manufactured to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.
   
4. Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.
   
5. Which has been subjected to an act of God, war, riot, insurrection, nuclear contamination, natural disasters, including, but not limited to, lightning, forest fires, dust storms, hail storms, ice storms, earthquakes, or floods, or other circumstances out of Harley-Davidson's control.
   
6. Which has been in an accident or collision or has been dropped or struck."
   

Now to the part you posted, that is included in:

"OTHER LIMITATIONS"

Other Limitations

This limited warranty does not cover:

1. Parts and labor for normal maintenance as recommended in the owner's manual, or the replacement of parts due to normal wear and tear including, but not limited to, the following: tires, lubrication, oil and filter change, fuel system cleaning, battery maintenance, engine tune-up, spark plugs, brake, clutch, chain/belt adjustment and chain replacement.
   
2. Cosmetic concerns that arise as a result of owner abuse, lack of proper maintenance or environmental conditions (except concerns that result from defects in factory materials or workmanship, which are covered by this limited warranty for the duration of the limited warranty period).
   
3. Any cosmetic condition existing at the time of retail delivery that has not been documented by the authorized Harley-Davidson selling dealer prior to retail delivery.
   
4. Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson's factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your motorcycle.
   
5. Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to performance-enhancing powertrain components or software, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, non-approved tires, lowering kits, handlebars, and add-ons connected to the factory electrical system.
   

Looks to me like they covered their Butt both ways.

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin,

Perhaps I misunderstand, I read the link you supplied, and it reads,

"EXCLUSIONS"

This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle.

1. Which has not been operated or maintained as specified in the owner's manual.
   
2. Which has been abused, neglected, misused, improperly stored, used "off the highway," or used for racing or competition of any kind.
   
3. Which is not manufactured to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.
   
4. Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.
   
5. Which has been subjected to an act of God, war, riot, insurrection, nuclear contamination, natural disasters, including, but not limited to, lightning, forest fires, dust storms, hail storms, ice storms, earthquakes, or floods, or other circumstances out of Harley-Davidson's control.
   
6. Which has been in an accident or collision or has been dropped or struck."
   

Now to the part you posted, that is included in:

"OTHER LIMITATIONS"

Other Limitations

This limited warranty does not cover:

1. Parts and labor for normal maintenance as recommended in the owner's manual, or the replacement of parts due to normal wear and tear including, but not limited to, the following: tires, lubrication, oil and filter change, fuel system cleaning, battery maintenance, engine tune-up, spark plugs, brake, clutch, chain/belt adjustment and chain replacement.
   
2. Cosmetic concerns that arise as a result of owner abuse, lack of proper maintenance or environmental conditions (except concerns that result from defects in factory materials or workmanship, which are covered by this limited warranty for the duration of the limited warranty period).
   
3. Any cosmetic condition existing at the time of retail delivery that has not been documented by the authorized Harley-Davidson selling dealer prior to retail delivery.
   
4. Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson's factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your motorcycle.
   
5. Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to performance-enhancing powertrain components or software, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, non-approved tires, lowering kits, handlebars, and add-ons connected to the factory electrical system.
   

Looks to me like they covered their Butt both ways.

In the first part you highlighted, the key word is "MAY", it does not say that it will. It is effective at putting a fear in people that it "WILL", but it does not say that it will, only that it may.

What determines if it will?

The second part that you have highlighted.

Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail.

If you add a part to the bike, and that part causes a Harley-Davidson part to fail, then that part of the bike is not covered under warranty.

All the rest of the 2nd part that you have highlighted are just examples of what kind of things that can be added that MAY cause a HD part to fail, and if it does, only then does the warranty not cover that part of the bike.

Any other understanding/interpretation of the warranty is not in keeping with federal law, court precedent, and the practices of the vast majority of Dealerships in the USA.

There are, of course, a small % of dealerships that do not adhere to the law...and it is not worth it to fight them (for most folks), better to just change dealerships.

On the other hand, there are a great number of employees at dealerships that will tell you any number of things...just the other day I heard, with my own ears, an employee at a dealership say "if the regular scheduled maintenance is not done by a HD Dealership, then the warranty on the entire bike is void."

Of course this is ridiculous, but not uncommon for an employee to say. Fortunately it is very rare for the service departments at the same dealership to actually try and deny warranty service.

Kevin

[Jack Klarich]

I am still tinkering with the M8, the best thing from DK is everything is in real time It just does not get any better than that, DK rocks I cannot thank them enough. If y'all want the best IMO go see them I will. They are simple folks, they give you the tour and treat you and your ride like family, Nuff Said, Thanks again for powering up my ride, I have been tinkering and running cooler with more mods hope to see yall @ your shop late may or early June, my Sportster to Streetbob mock up is done I hope your Sporster build is done also

[Jack Klarich]

Today I hit 42 mpg and still changing in real time. The temp hit 311 but settled back in @286 the intake temp is always less than half the head temp

Rock on DK Customs U guys are the BEST

[Jack Klarich]

Spark plugs are off gray in color. I know many will say u cannot read a plug, that is NOT true. With a light and an eye loop u can read the plug, it will tell u what u want if u know the secrets of reading them. I am getting 44.1 mpg as of today, I am NOT expecting much more, this is easy shifting into high gear@1850 RPM No lugging with 90 octane NO alkyhal fuel Ride Safe and keep tuned for more, Thank U D K and Rock on

[RedOregon]

1850 rpm?????

[DK Custom Products]

1850 rpm?????

He has an M8, they develop a lot more torque down low than the TC's. They also seem to have stronger cranks than the TC's, so should not be vulnerable to the crank twisting like the TC's.

1850 is not out of line for cruising, low load (low throttle) situations for an M8. If you want to accelerate (move out of cruising mode) then a downshift is definitely in order to get the RPM up and less stress on the crank.

From the chart below you can see that an M8 is within spitting distance of max torque at 1750 RPM. Totally different animal than the Twin Cam.



Kevin

[RedOregon]

Damn! Yeah that's different!

[Jack Klarich]

Yup, I can shift into 6th gear without lugging @1750, or sometimes @ 7 percent throttle

[DK Custom Products]

Damn! Yeah that's different!

Yes, HD did not address all the issues of the TC with the M8, BUT, it is a very interesting powerplant, and I think a big improvement over the TC.

Time will tell.

Kevin

[Jack Klarich]

Kevin I am stuck @44.2 MPG I do not think it will go much higher, However it still comes out to almost 50mpg on paper. I have not run out of gas yet

[Jack Klarich]

This past Saturday, The Redhead and I rode 164 miles. The starting air temp was in the low 90s , we were getting 44.6 MPG. The head temp never hit 303 degrees. On the last 25 miles the air temp dropped 20 degrees with rain, the head temp dropped to 280 and the mpg stayed 44.6. Most of this trip was with the cruise set @70mph, @ 7percent throttle and 2550 rpm. The M8 can be shifted to 6th gear @ or below 1800 rpm constantly with NO pinging. I would Never do this with an EVO or a Twin Cam. It takes longer rides now to ring out .1 mpg, I cannot believe this engine. It cools off 1 degree a minute after shutdown, The oil cooler fan on my trike comes on { IMO and not scientific} too early . This leads me to believe the MOCO Knows this engine runs hotter { it needs to IMO}. ALL the tests I am doing are my own observations and have no science behind them, I do know I did see temps North of 325 @ times and I do not worry about them. IMO I think SOME are NOT getting good readings from whatever devices they are using. I would like to know if y'all are using infra red or the IMO POS HD air temp gauge ? The DK CUSTOMS installed PV by Dynojet is accurate and is recording ALL the info so I can save it and copy it. I may be wrong, JMO and thanks for reading. I am going to put some city miles on today. 1 more note, my modified head breather is working GREAT, {like the EVO and TC} it is catching minor oil in the filter and drain system I have designed. I can drain it out whenever I want to inspect the oil for debris before it goes back to the oil tank. IMO this is a huge plus to see this oil and what it is carrying after it has already been filtered by { I have tested a lot of non HD filters}. So far good by what I see, the oil is not very dirty, not much in the filter/ drain, and finally I do not smell gas in the oil and it does not burn as quickly as oil from my Evo or TC, I know this from non scientific testing. DO NOT TRY THIS @home.

[Jack Klarich]

Still stuck @ 44.6 mpg, I reset the fuel ratio on 2 fuel trims {Lambda 1 and 2}

In this chart y'all can see where rich

14.7 is ideal? I set the low side to stay 14.7, working BACKWARDS I set the high 1 point lower. For Lambda 2 I set the low to 14.7 and the high to 13.5. I will give it a few days and miles to see how it affects the MPG and the TEMPERATURE, if I am right I should not see much change, The M8 is an INCREDIBLE engine

[Ridernut]

Very interesting read. My wife bought a 15 FW which I put about 10,000 miles on before she traded for a 16 TG which I have put about 11,000 miles on. While at Bikes & Blues last week I got to ride an 18 FW and was extremely impressed. I rode several 2 wheelers and was impressed by the FW more that any of the rest. It ran considerably better than the 15 we had. It's got me seriously looking at trading my 14 Ultra Ltd. in on a new FW. I just wish I wouldn't get beat up so bad on the trade. Looking forward to keeping up with this thread.

Thanks