Testing Stage 1 AC With Stock Mufflers No Tune On 2017 Tri Glide-Outcome After A Week

[Bill G]

My 2017 Tri Glide is bone stock and runs great and I don't mind the sound of the stock exhaust at all. I do like the cleaner look of the stage 1 AC systems that utilize the stock 107 M8 AC cover. They really clean up the look of the factory air intake by removing the bulky black air box. I chose the SE stage one because it is CARB approved here in California.

With that said the 2017 trikes don't seem to be as lean running as previous years, they seem to be tuned better. I am running a test right now with a stage 1 air cleaner installed only, no tune useing the stock tune and stock mufflers.

To my surprise the trike runs even stronger through the RPM range and did not seem to lean out. The spark plugs look very good. I have run many spark plug cuts (the old fasthion way of checking how rich or lean a motor is running) at all diffrent RPM ranges and diffrent steady cruise speeds this week.

All of these spark plug cuts so far have looked very very good no lean readings at all (all the spark plug cuts looked very much like the plug pics below). Over all this tells me nothing is being hurt and nothing is to lean with this set up. I don't plan on changeing the mufflers which would increase the air flow out of the combustion system.

A muffler change more than likely would for sure start leaning things out more (more air through the combustion system). The bike can only take in and expel so much air with the stock exhaust system. As said my trike runs stronger and shows no signs of leaning out. The factory tune on the ECM looks to be compensating just fine for the AC upgrade only.

In my opinion the 2017 stock Harley fuel injection compensates much better than what folks are being lead to believe. Yes it will control to an EPA tune but that's not going to burn a stock bike up and will still run ok and still get decent fuel mileage. That's what my testing this week has shown me.

I also talked with S&S cycle by phone the other day (was also looking at one of there CARB approved AC units) and they pretty much varified my conclusions here before I started my testing.

They said my 2017 bike will run fine and not burn up with the stock mapping. They said that is what there dyno runs and testing has shown with an AC mod only. They also said if I tune the bike even richer than the EPA map it will even have more gains and if I add mufflers even more gains.(we all know that to be true). They also said the 2017 do very well compared to past years and run well stock.

All this testing has led me to believe the changes below with the stock 2017 tune will work just fine. While maintaining decent fuel mileage. Going to run more test this week and if All looks good I am going to leave the Trike this way as said it runs great.

* Mufflers only stock tune= ok

* Stage 1 AC and stock mufflers =ok

Plug pic in spark plug socket= Front plug.

Plug pic without plug socket= Rear plug.

Ride Safe All,

Bill G

[Casper]

Good info to know, thanks.

i was wanting to leave everything stock and remove the CAT for heat management but most of the feedback I've gotten says I would have to add a tuner.

[Trampas]

I guess you gave up the EBS that you had on there with stock air cleaner???

Now if I'm understanding this, that is the stage 1 kit from S & S with the breather tubes going into the throttle body.

I think those plugs look good to me anyway, time will tell with more miles on the new air cleaner kit.

I'm not sure but the last time I was at dealer the service guy said the new M8's run wide band sensors instead of narrow band, he could be wrong I'm not sure, he works at harley and I know he has been there along time. Maybe somebody with more info can confirm this.

Let us know how this works out for you.

All for now Trampas

[Bill G]

I guess you gave up the EBS that you had on there with stock air cleaner???Now if I'm understanding this, that is the stage 1 kit from S & S with the breather tubes going into the throttle body.

I think those plugs look good to me anyway, time will tell with more miles on the new air cleaner kit. I'm not sure but the last time I was at dealer the service guy said the new M8's run wide band sensors instead of narrow band, he could be wrong I'm not sure, he works at harley and I know he has been there along time.

Maybe somebody with more info can confirm this. Let us know how this works out for you.All for now Trampas

Trampas, No it is not the S&S Stage 1 AC unit in the pic above it is a Screaming Eagle HD Stage 1 AC unit. I was looking at the S&S stage 1 AC CARB approved unit when I talked to S&S Cycles in detail about tuning as stated above.

I settled on the SE or Screaming Eagle Stage 1 unit in the pic because it was available at the local HD dealer. Both of these stage 1 AC units had a CARB approval for California emissions to keep my bike legal.

Also S&S Cycles said to me most all stage 1 AC units on the market perform about the same generally or with marginal differences between them on the dyno when tuned apples to apples (I tend to agree and really respected their honesty). I believe this because most stage 1 units on the market use the same type K&N filter design and this should give or take give about the same filter displacement between them all (also the throttle body can only take so much air).

So I say pick your medicine and pick the stage 1 AC unit you like even though the manufactures out there will tout why there unit is better. You got to be smarter than the sales pitches out there.As far as the EBS goes I did not give up and I got it to work just fine on my stock air box without modifying the air box.

You can see the pic's of the new improved hose system I installed towards the last part of that posting about that subject. The problem now is with trying to install the EBS on the new stage 1 AC unit is this. I don't want to modify the new stage 1 set up as it is CARB approved.

It is not as easy on this set up to install an EBS without mods to the backing plate and as stated I do not want to mess with mods that void the CARB approval on the AC intake. Also as stated in my last posting about the EBS install on my stock air box I don't think the EBS thing is a bad thing at all to do.

I also think is overstated as a need to have improvement or mod (some may flame me a little for this statement and that's ok).I have seen and do feel a performance gain with the SE Stage 1 AC unit installed along with the stock tune and stock mufflers on our 2017 M8. Also as said so far my testing has shown no negatives as stated (tuning seems to be ok).

I have also seen in my research a few dyno runs out there by different folks on stock 2017 M8 engines with only the AC unit changed out that showed up to 5% to 7% gains in torque and 8% to 10% gains in HP all with the stock tune. (This supporting what I have seen with our 2017 M8 Trike so far).

I plan to do more rides and plug checks and as said if All stays looking great the trike will stay this way.Ride Safe, :)Bill G

[Trampas]

I guess you gave up the EBS that you had on there with stock air cleaner???

Now if I'm understanding this, that is the stage 1 kit from S & S with the breather tubes going into the throttle body.

I think those plugs look good to me anyway, time will tell with more miles on the new air cleaner kit.

I'm not sure but the last time I was at dealer the service guy said the new M8's run wide band sensors instead of narrow band, he could be wrong I'm not sure, he works at harley and I know he has been there along time. Maybe somebody with more info can confirm this.

Let us know how this works out for you.

All for now Trampas

Never mine, went back and read it, it is the screaming eagle one instead of S&S, beginning to think I need glasses or read slower which I think will help LOL

All for now Trampas

[Bill G]

Double post Deleted...

Bill G

[Trampas]

Looks like we was posting at the same time according to what it says for time. As stated in my post above it is the screaming eagle one, which I'm looking at myself for down the road but not now.

I know what you did with EBS from your post, looks like this setup you are not doing it for right now since the pic shows hoses going into throttle body and I understand your take on this, me personally if you don't over fill the oil I don't think there will be much going into throttle body, just my take on the subject.

All for now Trampas

[Bill G]

Looks like we was posting at the same time according to what it says for time. As stated in my post above it is the screaming eagle one, which I'm looking at myself for down the road but not now.

I know what you did with EBS from your post, looks like this setup you are not doing it for right now since the pic shows hoses going into throttle body and I understand your take on this, me personally if you don't over fill the oil I don't think there will be much going into throttle body, just my take on the subject.

All for now Trampas

yes I agree with you on the amount going into the intake. My take is based on real world based on my needs and the EPA crap in California, thanks for the support. Funny we where posting at the same time.. My PC locked up and double posted. Now the posting is all blended together I deleted the one, darn computers... Lol

Not sure about wide ban sensors ?? That would be news to me. Also would be good to know.

Bill G

[Bill G]

Trampas,No it is not the S&S Stage 1 AC unit in the pic above it is a Screaman Eagle HD Stage 1 AC unit. I was looking at the S&S stage 1 AC CARB approved unit when I talked to S&S Cycles in detail about tuning as stated above. I settled on the SE or Sreaman Eagle Stage 1 unit in the pic because it was available at the local HD dealer. Both of these stage 1 AC units had a CARB approval for California emissions to keep my bike legal. Also S&S Cycles said to me most all stage 1 AC units on the market perform about the same generally or with marginal differences between them on the dyno when tuned apples to apples (I tend to agree and really respected there honesty). I believe this because most stage 1 units on the market use the same type K&N filter design and this should give or take give about the same filter displacement between them all (also the throttle body can only take so much air). So I say pick your medicine and pick the stage 1 AC unit you like even though the manufactures out there will tout why there unit is better. You got to be smarter than the sales pitchs out there.As far as the EBS goes I did not give up and I got it to work just fine on my stock air box without modifying the air box. You can see the pic's of the new improved hose system I installed towards the last part of that posting about that subject. The problem now is with trying to install the EBS on the new stage 1 AC unit is this. I don't want to modify the new stage 1 set up as it is CARB approved. It is not as easy on this set up to install an EBS without mods to the backing plate and as stated I do not want to mess with mods that void the CARB approval on the AC intake. Also as stated in my last posting about the EBS install on my stock air box I don't think the EBS thing is a bad thing at all to do. I also think is overstated as a need to have improvement or mod (some may flame me a little for this statement and that's ok).I have seen and do feel a performance gain with the SE Stage 1 AC unit installed along with the stock tune and stock mufflers on our 2017 M8. Also as said so far my testing has shown no negatives as stated (tuning seems to be ok). I have also seen in my research a few dyno runs out there by diffrent folks on stock 2017 M8 engines with only the AC unit changed out that showed up to 5% to 7% gains in torque and 8% to 10% gains in HP all with the stock tune. (This supporting what I have seen with our 2017 M8 Trike so far). I plan to do more rides and plug checks and as said if All stays looking great the trike will stay this way.Ride Safe, Bill G

Just so everyone knows my PC locked up during this posting and posted twice .By the time I got things unlocked this posting had timed out and everything got all scrunched up together. I was not able to correct it. The other or second posting of this I was able to delete. My spelling typing and grammar is not always the best but I would not have done a run on like this....

I just wanted to clarify what happened here so I don't get anymore PM about it......

Ride Safe All,

Bill G

[Bill G]

Just so everyone knows my PC locked up during this posting and posted twice .By the time I got things unlocked this posting had timed out and everything got all scrunched up together. I was not able to correct it. The other or second posting of this I was able to delete. My spelling typing and grammar is not always the best but I would not have done a run on like this....

I just wanted to clarify what happened here so I don't get anymore PM about it......

Ride Safe All,

Bill G

Yay the Moderator corrected it Looks good, way better than my skills... Lol

Thanks,

Bill G

[DK Custom Products]

Your experiences mirrors ours with the M8.

It has a surprisingly good factory tune.

Almost 2 months ago we did 50 or so dyno pulls, and had a sniffer reading the AFR on almost all of them.

We were shocked at HD finally having a factory bike, for the first time since 2006, that was not overly lean.

This chart shows the improvement in the stock AFR on the M8's. You can see, except for the shift points (which are the peaks) that the blue line is staying between 14.5:1 and 15:1 AFR while cruising thru the gears.

On stock Twin Cams (2007 & up) it was normal to see it up in the 16.5:1 to 17:1 range (which is Far too lean).

The red line in the chart is showing a base "Stock Improved" tune from the Power Vision. It is a tad richer, but not much, since it was already pretty good from the factory as far as AFR.



This next chart shows the difference between the stock tune and the Power Vision "Stock Improved" tune. Nothing was changed other than the tune. The air cleaner and exhaust are stock. The improvement from the tune is modest but very definite.



This chart show that at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) the factory AFR is good with the stock air cleaner.



This chart shows that at WOT with the M8 Outlaw 587 A/C System, the factory AFR is Still good!



As I have stated before, I am very impressed with the M8.

Kevin

[geezerglide11441]

I guess you gave up the EBS that you had on there with stock air cleaner???

Now if I'm understanding this, that is the stage 1 kit from S & S with the breather tubes going into the throttle body.

I think those plugs look good to me anyway, time will tell with more miles on the new air cleaner kit.

I'm not sure but the last time I was at dealer the service guy said the new M8's run wide band sensors instead of narrow band, he could be wrong I'm not sure, he works at harley and I know he has been there along time. Maybe somebody with more info can confirm this.

Let us know how this works out for you.

All for now Trampas

NO wide band sensors on any OEM Harley's of any years!! All narrow band sensors!! Sorry for busting your bubble!

Roger

[Trampas]

NO wide band sensors on any OEM Harley's of any years!! All narrow band sensors!! Sorry for busting your bubble!

Roger

I just throwing that out about the wide band sensors, just going by what they told me in the service department, as I said in my post I wasn't sure and figured somebody on here would know so I guess he doesn't know either or was just guessing.

You didn't bust any bubble here geezerglide, LOL, just reporting what I hear, you know how that goes, don't believe everything, being a new motor who knows what they will do.

All for now Trampas

[Bill G]

Update now that I got in the hills two up with a load on a longer ride with higher weather temps 80 degrees plus.

well I believe the stage 1 without a tune and stock mufflers works well in closed loop and around town stop light to stop light and cooler weather worked great. Plug cuts good and throttle response good.

After going on a long ride two up in warmer weather pulling long grades at higher speeds keeping up with a big group things change a little. I now feel you will need a tune for long term open loop operation at higher weather temps (under constant load,climbing hills). The throttle response now changes and tends to gets less and leans out in this environment.

The stock AC set up pulls better or has a better feel to me in this environment. So now over all after testing I would say get a tune with the stage 1 upgrade even with stock mufflers to be safe and for best performance without any worries of damaging anything long term. I proved it to my self just to see, now I know.

Ride Safe All,

Bill G

[Casper]

I called the guy that did the stage 1 tune on our 16 ( Sheffer Performance, Evansville IN) and asked about Decatting the 17TG.

he also advised that a tune would be needed. His Suggestion was a Screaming Eagle air cleaner kit, decat the headed and a PV tune. He also said he really like the Kuryakin Mellow Crusher mufflers but I'm keeping the stock mufflers.