VTX 1800 - take front caliper off rear brake circuit? Rear Brake job. Quickstop shoes

[size=3][COLOR=#ff0000]EDIT! Changed the title to better reflect thread drift. [/COLOR][/SIZE];)

On the Honda VTX 1800, the brakes are set up different than I have been used to.

The front calipers have 3 pistons, two large one small.

The hand brake activates the two large pistons in each cylinder.

The REAR brake circuit activates the rear brakes AND the small piston in the front calipers. I am guessing that was their solution to riders that never use the front brake - make it mandatory.

Well.... I did a HARD braking event yesterday. Had the front tire on the edge of lockup, and applying the rear harder and harder. Applying the rear brakes made the front wheel lock up with the additional pressure! I was 'Glee on Three' having that stability, and lucky we did have a safe runout area. I basically missed our turn, and was trying to brake hard to make it. First time braking REALLY hard since I got the trike. IMO, it should have been able to slow enough to make it.

Now I do know I need to replace the rear cylinders. I was a dumbass and IDIOT for even riding until they were 100%. Parts are going on before next ride. The leading shoes are not activating, only trailing.

BUT... I still dont like idea that the brakes are linked. The service manual shows the rear master cylinder is 14mm bore, and that should be great with the two rear cylinders. There also is (per manual..) a proportioning valve also.

I wish to disconnect the front brake lines coming from the rear master cylinder so the rear brakes are ONLY the rear brakes. Prolly take the proportioning valve out of the system, as it might not work correctly with no front line pressure to 'proportion' to. Probably leave the lines on, and just plug the end. That way it can be reversed if necessary or desired. And will look stock. If it is still there... almost think a proportioning valve for a rear disc brake on a single wheel should be different than one for my twin drums and fatter tires anyway... :confused:

The hand brake alone puts plenty of pressure on the front brakes top lock the wheel up. No lack of force there. I want the same ability in the back, and NOT have it affect the front. I should have it able to lock front or back wheels using their respective cylinders.

Wanted to run this by the community for other views. Any opinions?

THANK YOU!!

I haven't rode both types so I won't give an opinion on whether or not but that is similar to what alot of 1800 goldwings have.On the old 1500s 1 front caliper worked off the rear and the other off the front master.It was to give better stopping power with the ability to add more if I remember correctly.I don't know about the VTX but some trike manufacturers do delink the brakes.

Well, the rear master applies the front but like just in a first stage. It's intended to allow the rider to increase front braking at will with out risking a high side. If you simply remove the connection to the rear master cylinder, you'll also loose some front braking power as you'll loose the added pressure those pistons applied to the pads.

[B]Just my thoughts[/B] … you miss a turn, you do a "go by" & turn around & come back.

I was gonna un-link the brakes on our's, it too has linked brakes, just slightly different. With the [B]GL1500[/B], the rear brakes and left front are activated by the foot pedal, the right front is activated by the right hand lever. I know some have done an "un-linking", some like to be able to lock the rears if they want, but after long thought, [B]I decided not to un-link them[/B]. I don't think that a situation where the rears lock, the rear maybe side steps, and then if released could result in a flip … is something I want. [B]I think [/B]having a front brake apply too [B]reduces[/B] that possibility.

My trike uses 9" Ford drum rear brakes, the wheel cylinders have two pistons opposite each other, I've [B]never [/B]known of or had a wheel cylinder only have one piston work. I've been well aquainted with drum brakes for over 50 years. I've had them leak & make a mess & need replacement or rebuild but not for a piston not working. Drum brakes are self energizing, the brake shoes get pressed against a post and the rotation action wedges the shoes against the drum. The one shoe gets wedged against the adjuster which wedges the other.

Springs pull the shoes away from the drum so it is[B] important that the brakes be adjusted periodically[/B] to eliminate excess clearance or travel that will only lead to un-needed brake piston travel that uses up brake fluid capacity and delays brake application. I am convinced from your description and my own personal experience that what you are concerned about will be largely eased with a [B]proper adjustment of the rear brakes.[/B] I adjust mine every oil change or before any longer anticipated trips.

[QUOTE=CrystalPistol;718054]Well, the rear master applies the front but like just in a first stage. It's intended to allow the rider to increase front braking at will with out risking a high side. If you simply remove the connection to the rear master cylinder, you'll also loose some front braking power as you'll loose the added pressure those pistons applied to the pads.

[COLOR=#ff0000]Right now the front brake master does give plenty of pressure to lock the front wheel. A wheel that is sliding or 'skidding' gives much less stopping power than one before lockup. So more clamping force, in this case, does not contribute to shorter stopping distance. [/COLOR]

[B]Just my thoughts[/B] … you miss a turn, you do a "go by" & turn around & come back.

[COLOR=#ff0000]VERY true. In this case, I had no traffic before or after, good safe runout area. and had yet to do a 'hard stop' or 'panic stop' type braking. This was done as a test. (Florida law even states 'U Turns are legal everywhere unless a sign prohibits' to encourage 'go by and come back'.) [/COLOR]

I was gonna un-link the brakes on our's, it too has linked brakes, just slightly different. With the [B]GL1500[/B], the rear brakes and left front are activated by the foot pedal, the right front is activated by the right hand lever. I know some have done an "un-linking", some like to be able to lock the rears if they want, but after long thought, [B]I decided not to un-link them[/B]. I don't think that a situation where the rears lock, the rear maybe side steps, and then if released could result in a flip … is something I want. [B]I think [/B]having a front brake apply too [B]reduces[/B] that possibility.

[COLOR=#ff0000]In my case, the front locks up before the rear even contributes[/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]​ significant braking. I will certainly replace the rear cylinders and test again before de-linking. If I find the rear cylinder continues to lock up the front, its a nogo. [/COLOR]

My trike uses 9" Ford drum rear brakes, the wheel cylinders have two pistons opposite each other, I've [B]never [/B]known of or had a wheel cylinder only have one piston work. I've been well aquainted with drum brakes for over 50 years. I've had them leak & make a mess & need replacement or rebuild but not for a piston not working. Drum brakes are self energizing, the brake shoes get pressed against a post and the rotation action wedges the shoes against the drum. The one shoe gets wedged against the adjuster which wedges the other.

[COLOR=#ff0000]

Got me beat, only 41 years turning wrenches for me. But I bet you got a head start... [/COLOR];)[COLOR=#ff0000]I know mine is a 7.5" ford rear, and according to Amazon the drum is 9.8" outside size, so we prolly have the same 9" drums. (Wagner 8952) When I test drove the trike, I pushed HARD on the rear brake pedal. This caused a shoe in back to stay partially extended, and give significant drag. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]I had to help the seller push the bike in the shop. He later messaged me that the fault was 'just an adjustment, and brake drums are tricky'. All he did was to back off the starwheel to allow the leading shoe to stop contacting the drum. When I had the drum off, and pressed the pedal, you can see the trailing shoe move but not the leading. I was being a dumbass, and so anxious to ride that I figured '1/2 should be OK for now' ... [/COLOR]:blush:

[COLOR=#ff0000]Running a VW shop for 20 years, one sees a lot of drum brakes also.[/COLOR] :D [COLOR=#ff0000]The front cylinders on a regular bug are oriented vertically (!) and must be bled before assembly to avoid the 'one pump then brakes work right' feel. I have even had people tell me that 'its how bug brakes work' [/COLOR]:xzqxz: [COLOR=#ff0000]Then I fix them, and tell them not to kiss the steering wheel... [/COLOR]:laugh:

[COLOR=#ff0000]The Bus front drums are even trickier - Double actuating/twin cylinder! They went to front disc in 71 though.

With the vertical orientation, I have seen several where the down piston is corroded/ frozen and the top still working. Not as common, but also seeing the leading shoe piston sticking while the trailing does not in the back. I was told this was because the trailing shoe is using the self actuating forces to press the piston back in, and the leading shoe relies only on the brake springs for return action. [/COLOR]:Shrug: [COLOR=#ff0000] We have a lot of humidity here, might be a contributing factor. With a VW, I would do a HARD brake application in reverse to see if it freed up the drum, and suddenly gave much more pedal travel. That would be the 'smoking gun' leading me to a stuck piston diagnosis. Sometimes just adjusting the brakes after doing this things would be OK. With no reverse on the trike, this test isn't available.

[/COLOR]Springs pull the shoes away from the drum so it is[B] important that the brakes be adjusted periodically[/B] to eliminate excess clearance or travel that will only lead to un-needed brake piston travel that uses up brake fluid capacity and delays brake application. I am convinced from your description and my own personal experience that what you are concerned about will be largely eased with a [B]proper adjustment of the rear brakes.[/B] I adjust mine every oil change or before any longer anticipated trips.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=#ff0000]There is not excess travel in the rear pedal as things are now. Nice and tight. Before taking things apart, I want to have new parts sitting ready. 'Tis the season' and we have another holiday party tonight so no trike work. [/COLOR]:mad:[COLOR=#ff0000] Will post with what I find Wednesday. I will test things as I go in and see 'zactly what is sticking.

[/COLOR]And a note on 'new' parts... I built several buggies for people, and they were used infrequently in many cases. Wouldn't be uncommon to have one come back with sticky pistons, several months later, even after using 100% new parts in the build. Taking the cylinder apart and re-honing it would solve things. I found the root cause to be poor cleaning of the newly manufactured part from the factory, and the cast iron bore filings rusting quite readily between the bore and the aluminum piston. So I have the habit of taking the new cylinder to bits right out of the box, and cleaning the bore and parts VERY well with spray brake cleaner and a clean rag. The amount of black residue (from honing) I remove was usually notable. Then reassemble after giving everything a wipe with new brake fluid, and it doesnt come back to the shop with sticky brakes later.

And for those with sand rails - many times the front brakes are omitted because the low front end weight causes premature lockup. I used to put early rear cylinders on the front, and the bigger bore later front cylinders on back for a 'poor mans' proportioning valve. Really helped the on street braking, and mitigated off road front lockup. Made the cutting brake work really well too! Be interesting to check the VW trike threads here to see if trikers are using front cylinders on the back..

[size=3]But anyhoo...back to the trike! I will keep camera handy and report findings back. But anyone who has de-linked their GTX or Goldwing, I would like to hear from you. THANKS again! [/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Volkemon;718090]… [size=3]THANKS again! [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Perhaps what you say about humidity is true, I've just never had DB WC pistons stick or freeze in place, but I never hone them, I just buy & check for cleanliness. I've had DB calipers with stuck pistons. I've had rubber brake hoses plug up too.

You mention [B]WC sizes[/B], the Ford WCs for the 9" come in several sizes. A Google search or perusing Rock Auto reveals sizes by application. 9" drums would be near 9.8" OD, Ford used them on applications at one time or another, Pintos, Mustangs, T-birds, Broncos, Rangers, Grenadas, etc. I have had to replace some on our trike after finding rear tire wet on inside.

[URL]https://www.triketalk.com/forum/threads/33630-Lehman-Monarch-I-on-2004-GW-Do-I-have-correct-part-s[/URL]

I know there used to be mechanics who used a special tool to measure and [B]adjust[/B] brake shoe adjusters before putting a drum on, but I just always favored backing off a few clicks, then adjusting up [B]just until[/B] I heard the shoes scraping the drum[B] lightly [/B]as the tire was rotated … and it makes a huge difference on our trike.

I also put a red [B]10psi [/B]Wilwood [B]residual pressure check valve[/B] in the rear line to maintain 10psi on the rear brake wheel cylinders … 10psi is not enough to overcome return springs, but it is enough to keep the seals full & ready … it has worked well too.

To all, a [FONT=comic sans ms][I][size=3][B][COLOR=#00FF00]Merry[/COLOR] [COLOR=#FF0000]Christmas![/COLOR][/B][/SIZE][/I][/FONT]

LOL!! I do have one of those tools... and it has sat unused for years.

The only 'addendum' I have when adjusting brakes is to center them also.

Starting with new parts assembled, adjuster in.

Slide drum on, then tighten the adjuster until the wheel does not turn. I sometimes go until the adjuster gets tight to turn. This ensures that the brake shoes are centered in the drum.

Then back off until the drum turns with light drag. This is even easier without the automatic adjusters. (The auto adjusters only work when the brakes are applied going backwards, so not much use on my trike! I assume thats why the leave them off.)

I found that when just tightening until they drag slightly it then uses the cylinder to center the shoes. If they were way off, then you have to adjust again to get it nice and tight.

I had not even considered changing WC (wheel cylinder for those scratching their heads) size in the back. Thats a GREAT idea. Per motortrike, a Dorman W37862 is what they put on. I will have to check that size.

The 10PSI residual check is another really good idea. Might have to consider that if I have too much slack.

Forums ROCK. Thanks YET AGAIN for the ideas.

OK, the Dorman W37862 is a 3/4 inch cylinder.

Found the WCA79985 on carquest parts, oddly enough Wagner shows it as 'not a good part number'. :Shrug: [url]https://www.wagnerbrake.com/find-my-part/part-number-results.html?part=WCA79985[/url]

LOL found it... O'Reilleys has it, just take off the 'A' in the prefix. Fits a 1963 Ford Falcon. 7/8"

[url]https://www.oreillyauto.com/search/1963/ford/falcon?q=WC+79985+[/url]

Well thats GREAT! I had not bought the 3/4 yet, may just put in the 7/8. Dont mind a bit more pedal travel in exchange for better 'brake feel'.

A gold membership is a good 'THANK YOU' to Papa Zook for keeping all this knowledge here...

Thanks yet again Crystal Pistol!

[QUOTE=Volkemon;718138]… etc … The 10PSI residual check … etc …

[/QUOTE] [SIZE=1]I found the Honda brake lines use a 45 degree double flare with a metric nut on 3/16" brake line. The RPValve is threaded for 1/8" NPT threads, so I adapted the valve to SAE 3/16" brake line nut with adapters that have the cone seat for the 45 degree double flare. I used a union for the metric nuts that also has the cones, thus allowing me to plumb the valve in line at the end of the hardline just in front of the axle.

[SIZE=1]I know, the ideal place is right as close to the master cylinder as possible, perhaps next time I'll move it so 10 PSI is maintained all the way back. As it is .... [B]it made a noticeable difference[/B]. The pedal has less travel, is harder, and the brakes when using just the rear pedal start stopping harder and earlier than before. I don't believe they could be any quicker acting. [/SIZE]

[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]

PS ….. I bought mine at Summitt.

Before you dive in and get things too in depth I'd like to back up a bit..

Is the rear brake pedal nice and firm (small amount of down travel), or when you depress it does it feel somewhat "soft"?

[QUOTE=trike tech;718178]Before you dive in and get things too in depth I'd like to back up a bit..

Is the rear brake pedal nice and firm (small amount of down travel), or when you depress it does it feel somewhat "soft"?[/QUOTE]

Nice and firm. Holds, does not fall.

Just went and measured, the pedal travel is 1" measured perpendicular to the pedal cover on the upper left corner.

Using a rocking motion, while applying hand brake the front wheel locks, and the rear move slightly.

Using same rocking motion, while applying foot brake the front and rear wheels lock.

Bike rolls freely otherwise.

Sounds like high spots on the brake shoes (pretty common now days)..

Remove the drums & look for "shiny" spots on the shoes, typically @ the outer edges or in the middle of the brake shoes (about 1" sections normally). The shiny area is the only places on the show that are making contact with the drum which is why you have a hard pedal but HORRIBLE stopping power.

You can sand the high spots down & adjust until you have proper contact with the drum. Properly adjusted rear brakes will lock up the rear wheels if you really try.

We used to NEVER see high spots during assembly/mfg until Wagner moved production overseas about 12 years ago; now days it's commonplace.

OK! That a new one to me, but I know the value of being 'in the biz'.

I remember cam/arc grinding brake shoes for trucks and forklifts. Found this...

Source - [URL]https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/brake-shoe-grinding.1136754/[/URL]

[QUOTE][COLOR=#000000][FONT=EBGaramond]I just glue 60 grit paper inside the drum and sand the shoes rubbing inside the drum .[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=EBGaramond]Far less dust and perfect fit .[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=EBGaramond]Little brake cleaner to remove the glue and good to go ...[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I have 3" wide 180 grit with adhesive backing. Bet that will work, but a bit slower.

More refinement - making a 'guide coat' with magic marker crosshatch. A light coat of flat black works well too.

source - [URL]https://forums.aaca.org/topic/242058-arc-grinding-brake-shoes/[/URL]

[QUOTE][COLOR=#353C41][FONT=Roboto]A bit off topic, but I got the arc on my brake shoes to match close enough to my drums that I was able to use my Ammco 1750 adjustment tool to get decent brakes. All I did was get a roll of sticky back sandpaper from my local hardware store and cut a length of it to match the inside circumference of the drum, stuck it in the drum and then placed the shoes for that drum inside and rubbed them back and forth until the magic marker cross hatches I put on the shoes were gone. You want a pretty close match on the diameter, so if the store has more than one type of sticky back sandpaper go with the thinnest (I took my calipers to the store to measure).[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

EDIT -

This thread has a wealth of knowledge. [URL]https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51722&showall=1[/URL]

The rain is just about passed here, and I am home today.. Gotta take the trike out of the carrier and into the garage. Got me some education going on!

I did a couple VW trikes, and many sandrails. Locking up the back brakes on the rails wasnt too tough, and we used a master with a 22mm (~7/8") bore.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80299[/ATTACH] [URL]https://socalautoparts.com/product/master-cylinder-kit-single-circuit-master-cylinder-and-reservoir-fits-buss-up-to-1966-and-most-dune-buggies/[/URL]

So the 14mm rear master on the bike should be giving me 'better leverage' or a greater advantage with the same size rear cylinders (3/4)

Oh yeah...thread subject... Richard - any opinion on de-linking the brakes?

To be completely honest, a bike with a properly adjusted brake system & bedded brakes will scream to a halt. I've slid countless VTX's sideways @ 40+ mph doing "lockup" checks on rear drum brakes.

You can change out the master cylinder & add a proportioning valve if you prefer, but it won't make any noticeable difference in the end once everything is "dialed in" properly. In simple terms, lockup is lockup.. Wrong bore on a master cylinder may improve or make things even worse. TOO BIG of a bore & it's like trying to force pressurized water through a 1/8" garden hose.. Too small of a bore & you will have poor brakes with far too much pedal travel.

Can't really offer any feedback about de-linking the setup, that's something we've never done to the best of my knowledge.

[QUOTE=trike tech;718310]To be completely honest, a bike with a properly adjusted brake system & bedded brakes will scream to a halt. I've slid countless VTX's sideways @ 40+ mph doing "lockup" checks on rear drum brakes.

[SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]NOW you are talking. Done the same with my sidecar setups so I 'knew' what is gonna happen.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

You can change out the master cylinder & add a proportioning valve if you prefer, but it won't make any noticeable difference in the end once everything is "dialed in" properly. In simple terms, lockup is lockup.. Wrong bore on a master cylinder may improve or make things even worse. TOO BIG of a bore & it's like trying to force pressurized water through a 1/8" garden hose.. Too small of a bore & you will have poor brakes with far too much pedal travel.

[SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Dittos again! Thats why I was expecting a 14mm master, probably with a shorter 'arm' than a bug, should give decent performance, as you describe above. But as I (maybe wrongly.....) understand it, there IS a proportioning valve there from the factory, dont know if it was removed. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

Can't really offer any feedback about de-linking the setup, that's something we've never done to the best of my knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Well, the problem is found. Text is above the picture it refers to.

Picture of the left side assembled, right looked similar. Looked to be all newer stuff, linings like new condition.



[ATTACH=CONFIG]80309[/ATTACH]

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Leading shoe on left side, very even wear. You can see the ridge on the very top of the shoe.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80310[/ATTACH]

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Trailing shoe left side, also very good contact pattern.

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Already had the right side taken apart before pictures started. All following pics are right side.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80315[/ATTACH]

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Leading shoe had little to no contact pattern. :( That little bit on the edges on the crown.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80316[/ATTACH]

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Trailing shoe had some contact on the bottom half.

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This view is of the trailing shoe piston with the protective boot removed. They grey assembly grease is still visible, and you can see where the iron oxide (rust) has stained the remaining grease 'iron oxide red'. I pushed the piston in with a small screwdriver to reveal the bore. You can see it rust stained also. Note also the contact area on the backing plate up and left of the cylinder. There is rust in the depressions, but it is scrubbed to shiny metal where the shoe was moving. On the top pivot pin, you can see the shoe moving scrubbed the black paint off also.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80318[/ATTACH]

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This is a view of the leading shoe piston, protective boot removed. HERE is our troublemaker. I could not push it in with a screwdriver, and until I have new parts 'in hand' I dont want to open the fluid system. There is some remnant of the assembly grease on the bottom. That is a small line of rust on the right side of the bore. Note on the pivot pin, the black paint has not been disturbed. There has been little movement here. Also note the backing plate contact patch. There is rust in the depressions, but there is minimal shiny scrubbed area. Another indicator of minimal shoe movement.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80319[/ATTACH]

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And thats where we are now. Next step is to go get some cylinders, same size is OK, will see availability of larger bore. Shoes and hardware should clean up fine for now, we have a set of Z474R shoes coming, they are the same fitment as the PAB 474R, but different linings. Both claim to be 'precision' (arc?) ground.

Less than $20 delivered to the house. PRIME eligible. :good:

[URL]https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Z474R-Riveted-Brake-Shoe/dp/B000CLMJR4/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Wagner+Z474R&qid=1576677751&s=automotive&sr=1-1[/URL]

The Z474R are known as the 'quickstop' line, the PAB 474R as 'thermo quiet'. I want quick stops, and will HOPEFULLY never need the thermal range of the PAB's.

While she is in the air and taken apart, see exactly where the rear brake line leads. Determine existence of factory proportioning valve. Mrs V went to a friends birthday party, so i have the garage to myself. :clap:

Remember to lube the shoe contact patches on the backing plates when you reinstall the brake shoes. Run your finger over the contact area, if it is NOT smooth file or sand it smooth to promote free moving shoes;)

[QUOTE=Jack Klarich;718369]Remember to lube the shoe contact patches on the backing plates when you reinstall the brake shoes. Run your finger over the contact area, if it is NOT smooth file or sand it smooth to promote free moving shoes;)[/QUOTE]

Atsa big 10-4 cuz! I use dielectric grease there.

My cat is named Jax after your fine town. You into music? I am friends with Bonnie Blue, Ginger Beard Men, Melody Trucks... all from there. Firewater Tent Revival too!

UPDATE!

Went to Autozone, got the same cylinders as spec'd by motortrike. Disassembled, cleaned. I was pleased by the lack of debris. They were made in china, imported into mexico then to me. I didnt get pics, but the round sides of the other new wheel cylinder pistons were shiny, these have black corrosion already. New in the bag.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80322[/ATTACH]

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After cleaning, put everything together with a spray of dielectric grease. Resistant to alcohol and water, makes great assembly lube for DOT 3,4,and 5 brakes in my experience.

Putting in the second seal and piston, things are so slick it will spring apart. Keep a thumb on the free end. The dust boot on the other side is holding things together.

Here we see the seal face before piston is installed.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80323[/ATTACH]

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Next up the piston. I spray dielectric grease liberally, then push the piston in. Hold the other side from popping out, and push far enough that the trapped air escapes. Then spray a bit of DiG into the dust cover, and install. THIS is what I consider a ready to install part.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80324[/ATTACH]________________________________________________________________________________

Now is when we apply the leeches.

Well, bleed the system. I do not want to put old dirty fluid into these nice prepped cylinders. Got my new fluid ready, put a drain hose off the line into the bucket, and proceed to flush the line. Top fluid is what came out. Not TOO old. The stuff on the bottom is 'new' about 2 years ago. I used it for pics after I did the camper brakes, been on the shelf ever since. The camper brakes were bad.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80325[/ATTACH]

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Like this bad. This is the fluid (probably original Ford factory c2006) that our camper came with. Saved for being such a good bad example.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80326[/ATTACH]

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This is the frozen wheel cylinder from the right side. I had to use a steel rod and small hammer to drive the leading piston out. The seal cups were corroded with the black stuff to the pistons, you can see the last of the silver cadmium plating hanging on in the center.

If you HAD to, these can be honed, cleaned and reused. Done it. Better than nothing. With new ones under $20... to the scrap pile they go.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80327[/ATTACH]

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Now to attend to the shoes. Took some 180 grit sticky back roll paper, and put it on the inside of the drum.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80328[/ATTACH]

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Worked great. The shoe on the left is the left leading, as removed. The right is the trailing from the same wheel, sanded. VERY nice contact surface. Did not take much to sand.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80329[/ATTACH]

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The left leading shoe done. It looked worse when i started, but leveled out quickly. I flipped the paper in the drum for shoe #2 to get some fresh surface.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80330[/ATTACH]

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Then I used the same sandpaper and sanded the glaze off the drum. ;) Drum was in new condition, NO wear marks. More work is usually needed, turning even, to get this surface.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80331[/ATTACH]

At my attachment quota for part one. Busy day! :clapping:

Part Deux....

This is the working cylinder from the left side. This is the top of the leading shoe piston, I flipped the cylinder over. You can see the grease pushed forward from piston movement. This is the pretty grease. :xzqxz:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80332[/ATTACH]

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This is what was on the bottom left leading shoe piston. The cylinder is oriented properly in this pic. Nasty.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80333[/ATTACH]

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OK, the trike is on jackstands in the garage. Mrs V's Turbo Diesel is out in the cold... Thanks Honey!

Have everything assembled, and as Jack said - made sure the contact points to the backplate were lubed and smooth.

Need my brake spoons. Get them tomorrow. The weldments on the axle make it tight.

Then adjust and bleed.

Looking forward to testing brakes soon. :D

Best of luck to you:clapping:

Bleed the hell out of the NEW wheel cylinders;)

Went to the old shop and got some spoons and my AMMCO 'SAFE-SET' drum and shoe caliper. Sets them a little closer to done, less reaching with the spoon.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80341[/ATTACH]

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And the way the access hole is off center, you will want to minimize spoon work. especially with the jack stand blocking. :gah: I searched the part number on the backing plate, have not found it. Has a look like it is centered for a manual adjuster wheel... but a SOB for the self adjuster, especially when backing off a little. Might have to look at some old parts books and see if I can find a manual adjuster that fits, and a longer spring to keep the shoes together. :confused: Be nice. But, got them adjusted tight and bled.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80342[/ATTACH]

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Took it for a test drive. Richard is right - I can lock them up at will. Took the right a couple tries to bed in, but they both brake VERY well and lockup at the same time. No pull.

The rear cylinders that came with the trike were toast, no question. I was VERY stupid to even ride on them.

I am re-thinking de-linking. :D I may have to re-think my braking procedure. I was taught, and followed this rule:

"[COLOR=#ff0000]Front brakes until you start to run out, then be helping with the back[/COLOR]".

Most of the time, I never used the back brake. My 'emergency response' in braking has been the same. But that was two wheels, or with a brakeless sidecar. Not 'Glee on Three'.

I think I have to re-train myself, and start using the foot pedal as the primary.

"[COLOR=#008000]Pedal brake until running out, then helping with the front[/COLOR]" .

Using this method, I could keep the rears on the edge of lockup, and add some front until it locked. Took a few 50 - 0 tests to see that this worked FAR better than the old rule. The old BF's on the back start to 'talk to me' nicely before they lockup, the front Avon gives very little notice before you smell smoke. I have a good feel for what it will tolerate now.

Was very reassuring that any wheel lockup didnt compromise control. Locking the rears the trike stayed true to course, and locking the front did give any problems when it resumed turning.

Locking up all three at ~35 gave me a little bounce, but I didnt explore too far or long there. 'Been there, done that'.

Spent most of my time working on getting the stopping distance minimized. I can now push all 3 tires to the limit reliably.

Almost glad I have been off a bike for ~10 years. I am going to retrain myself to use the back first. Use the front as a secondary and a 'hillholder'.

AND... using this method, it is an advantage to have some front brake coming in. Even on grass I was not locking the front while sliding both rears. Pretty sure the PCV (pressure control valve, factory installed) is limiting the front wheel pressure from the foot pedal like it should. So I should be free from front lockup worries from pedal brake application. Just gotta follow the NEW rules.

New and different bike, new and different rules.

I can live with that.

Literally. :cool:

So, in summation... De-linking is NOT for me. No advantage, and maybe even a disadvantage to do so.

That backing plate looks like a Mustang 2, it is obsolete ;)