Question about new air cleaner

GoSlo · Sep 4, 2018

Went into my local H-D dealership and was asking them about putting on their stage 1 air cleaner. Seems like all they do is swap out to a KN filer, but maybe there's more to it. Anyway, they then tell me that I have to buy the SE Pro Street Tuner and then have it dyno'd. They don't have a dyno for trikes so I asked how they planned on doing that. They said they would just run some updated sofware or something to make it run right. They would do all this for "only" $712!!

I thought if you only changed out the air filter there was no need to do anything since the ECM would adjust itself? I'm not going to buy the air cleaner from them anyway and going to go with one of the Stage I air cleaners from DK Custom. Putting on a DK air cleaner, do I have to do anything or will the ECM adjust (as much as it can anyway) itself.

I have a 2018 TriGlide with the M8 engine, so maybe that makes a difference vs. my old Twin Cam?

Thanks!

Freewheeling Ron · Sep 4, 2018

I'm no expert on this but from what I've read you should not have to reflash if you just do the air cleaner. I would keep all your take off parts for when you go in for service though. The dealer may flag your trike in the system for having modified the emissions system and Harley will void your warranty. Harley would rather it choke for air, have hot oily crankcase gases going through the throttle body, run lean and hot rather than allow for mods that will make it run better and longer.

MDO · Sep 4, 2018

GoSlo said:
Went into my local H-D dealership and was asking them about putting on their stage 1 air cleaner. Seems like all they do is swap out to a KN filer, but maybe there's more to it. Anyway, they then tell me that I have to buy the SE Pro Street Tuner and then have it dyno'd. They don't have a dyno for trikes so I asked how they planned on doing that. They said they would just run some updated sofware or something to make it run right. They would do all this for "only" $712!!

I thought if you only changed out the air filter there was no need to do anything since the ECM would adjust itself? I'm not going to buy the air cleaner from them anyway and going to go with one of the Stage I air cleaners from DK Custom. Putting on a DK air cleaner, do I have to do anything or will the ECM adjust (as much as it can anyway) itself.

I have a 2018 TriGlide with the M8 engine, so maybe that makes a difference vs. my old Twin Cam?

Thanks!

You are correct that the M8's run different. Kevin, from DK Custom Products, has stated that in his testing, the M8 doesn't run lean the way the older t/c's did from the factory.

I would contact DK Customs.

Bluz1953 · Sep 4, 2018

New Air Cleaner

I put Arlen Ness inverted air cleaner on my bike 2013 triglde 7300 miles and it runs a lot better, smoother, more power.

Jack Klarich · Sep 4, 2018

Any change to an M8 either air or exhaust now requires the H D tuner or it will void your power train warranty per the consent decree HD entered into with the EPA

How ever you can swap out the air cleaner with out the tuner, just keep your stock 1 handy if you need to swap it back for warranty work

Jack Klarich · Sep 4, 2018

Barry, I have over 17k trouble free miles since I changed my air cleaner

No check engine light and NO more oil in the air filter

FuzzyWuzHe · Sep 4, 2018

Old rule of thumb ... if you change anything after the engine ... no re tuning needed ... if you change something before the engine ... you must re tune ... that may not apply to the M8, but, I'd consider it anyway .... you can get a power vision and tune it yourself for much less. Plus, you get the added benefit of getting the same info from the Power Vision that the ECM has ... great for troubleshooting and keeping an eyeball on how the engine is performing.

Jack Klarich · Sep 4, 2018

FuzzyWuzHe said:
Old rule of thumb ... if you change anything after the engine ... no re tuning needed ... if you change something before the engine ... you must re tune ... that may not apply to the M8, but, I'd consider it anyway .... you can get a power vision and tune it yourself for much less. Plus, you get the added benefit of getting the same info from the Power Vision that the ECM has ... great for troubleshooting and keeping an eyeball on how the engine is performing.

Fuzzy, The M8s do not run lean like the Twin Cams so you can get by with out the PV Tho I would say get 1 and have even more fun fine tuning it

DK Custom Products · Sep 6, 2018

GoSlo said:
Went into my local H-D dealership and was asking them about putting on their stage 1 air cleaner. Seems like all they do is swap out to a KN filer, but maybe there's more to it. Anyway, they then tell me that I have to buy the SE Pro Street Tuner and then have it dyno'd. They don't have a dyno for trikes so I asked how they planned on doing that. They said they would just run some updated sofware or something to make it run right. They would do all this for "only" $712!!

I thought if you only changed out the air filter there was no need to do anything since the ECM would adjust itself? I'm not going to buy the air cleaner from them anyway and going to go with one of the Stage I air cleaners from DK Custom. Putting on a DK air cleaner, do I have to do anything or will the ECM adjust (as much as it can anyway) itself.

I have a 2018 TriGlide with the M8 engine, so maybe that makes a difference vs. my old Twin Cam?

Thanks!

As Jack & MDO noted, the M8's do not run lean from the factory like the Twin Cams. You can switch to a DK Custom air cleaner and not do a tune. Keep the factory A/C and if you need to go in for engine warranty work, put the factor A/C back on. Takes 20-30 minutes max.

Will a tune help it run better? Yes, even with the factory A/C a tune that adjusts the timing will make it run a bit better, but it is not necessary.

Here is a LINK with a report (with dyno charts) on the subject.

Below is just one chart from the above report showing a very nice gain in power by only changing the A/C from Factory to a DK 587.

Kevin

GoSlo · Sep 6, 2018

Thanks for all the info from everyone!

Seems the M8 really is different from past engines, but looking at the chart Kevin sent, putting on an air cleaner helps quite a bit with both torque and power without a tune. I may ask if I get the PV instead of their SE tuner if that meets their requirements. They sell the PV to lots of people and do tunes with it, so I would think they may be OK going that way. I'll let you know what they say.

If I can ask, what's the difference between the Stage I air cleaners from DK and H-D? Looks like they both use the K&N filter.

Jack Klarich · Sep 6, 2018

GoSlo said:
Thanks for all the info from everyone!

Seems the M8 really is different from past engines, but looking at the chart Kevin sent, putting on an air cleaner helps quite a bit with both torque and power without a tune. I may ask if I get the PV instead of their SE tuner if that meets their requirements. They sell the PV to lots of people and do tunes with it, so I would think they may be OK going that way. I'll let you know what they say.

If I can ask, what's the difference between the Stage I air cleaners from DK and H-D? Looks like they both use the K&N filter.

The Screaming Eagle routes the oily mist from the head breathers back into the throttle, The D K customs does not= better throttle response and no carbon build up inside cylinders = better running engine and cooler intake air

MDO · Sep 6, 2018

GoSlo said:
Thanks for all the info from everyone!

Seems the M8 really is different from past engines, but looking at the chart Kevin sent, putting on an air cleaner helps quite a bit with both torque and power without a tune. I may ask if I get the PV instead of their SE tuner if that meets their requirements. They sell the PV to lots of people and do tunes with it, so I would think they may be OK going that way. I'll let you know what they say.

If I can ask, what's the difference between the Stage I air cleaners from DK and H-D? Looks like they both use the K&N filter.

I put the K&N air filter in the stock box & installed an external breather of my design with no change in tune & saw immediate benefits. If I had it to do over, I would get DK Customs air filter. I like the way the stock airbox looks.

Old Road Dog · Sep 6, 2018

The selling dealer will be more than happy to sell you an aftermarket tuner,cleaner, exhaust and will most likely stand behind it.The problem begins if your out of town and need work-non HD parts could cause warranty problems. The PV is a great way to go if one has deep pockets and dosnt give a flip about a warranty.My Twin Cam and Sportster both have motor upgrades and tuners (V&E). But Ive done nothing to the M8.It has plenty of power and runs cooler stock than my TC.And there sits my 76' shovelhead. Unaware it needs an electronic brain.It wouldnt know what to do with it even if offered one.The points can be set with the cellophane wrapper from a pack of Camels on the side of the road.The Kehin carb can be tuned with a screwdriver.And whatever happened to tube tops...

midiwiz · Sep 7, 2018

GoSlo said:
Went into my local H-D dealership and was asking them about putting on their stage 1 air cleaner. Seems like all they do is swap out to a KN filer, but maybe there's more to it. Anyway, they then tell me that I have to buy the SE Pro Street Tuner and then have it dyno'd. They don't have a dyno for trikes so I asked how they planned on doing that. They said they would just run some updated sofware or something to make it run right. They would do all this for "only" $712!!

I thought if you only changed out the air filter there was no need to do anything since the ECM would adjust itself? I'm not going to buy the air cleaner from them anyway and going to go with one of the Stage I air cleaners from DK Custom. Putting on a DK air cleaner, do I have to do anything or will the ECM adjust (as much as it can anyway) itself.

I have a 2018 TriGlide with the M8 engine, so maybe that makes a difference vs. my old Twin Cam?

Thanks!

so I have 2 answers for you -

1) my 2016 103 had the arlen ness that I put on it - huge improvement but no tuner I just put slip ons no headers. However the ness and my knee didn't get along especially when the bike was hot.

2) my new 2018 - I wanted to avoid that situation, so I did have the dealer put on the stage 1 air cleaner since from my 2016 I realize most of the air comes from front and under which was perfect [plus I have an anniversary so I wanted to stay with the markings. Yes I had to do the SE tuner, as it was explained to me it keeps that warranty intact (Harley has changed a few things in respect to that and I always carry ESP) HOWEVER no dyno was necessary since it's a known loadable profile. It only cost me a couple hundred for this....so you might think about finding a different dealer that isn't going to bend you over and not use lube.

DK Custom Products · Sep 7, 2018

GoSlo said:
Thanks for all the info from everyone!

Seems the M8 really is different from past engines, but looking at the chart Kevin sent, putting on an air cleaner helps quite a bit with both torque and power without a tune. I may ask if I get the PV instead of their SE tuner if that meets their requirements. They sell the PV to lots of people and do tunes with it, so I would think they may be OK going that way. I'll let you know what they say.

If I can ask, what's the difference between the Stage I air cleaners from DK and H-D? Looks like they both use the K&N filter.

Old Road Dog said:
The selling dealer will be more than happy to sell you an aftermarket tuner,cleaner, exhaust and will most likely stand behind it.The problem begins if your out of town and need work-non HD parts could cause warranty problems. The PV is a great way to go if one has deep pockets and dosnt give a flip about a warranty.My Twin Cam and Sportster both have motor upgrades and tuners (V&E). But Ive done nothing to the M8.It has plenty of power and runs cooler stock than my TC.And there sits my 76' shovelhead. Unaware it needs an electronic brain.It wouldnt know what to do with it even if offered one.The points can be set with the cellophane wrapper from a pack of Camels on the side of the road.The Kehin carb can be tuned with a screwdriver.And whatever happened to tube tops...

midiwiz said:
so I have 2 answers for you -

1) my 2016 103 had the arlen ness that I put on it - huge improvement but no tuner I just put slip ons no headers. However the ness and my knee didn't get along especially when the bike was hot.

2) my new 2018 - I wanted to avoid that situation, so I did have the dealer put on the stage 1 air cleaner since from my 2016 I realize most of the air comes from front and under which was perfect [plus I have an anniversary so I wanted to stay with the markings. Yes I had to do the SE tuner, as it was explained to me it keeps that warranty intact (Harley has changed a few things in respect to that and I always carry ESP) HOWEVER no dyno was necessary since it's a known loadable profile. It only cost me a couple hundred for this....so you might think about finding a different dealer that isn't going to bend you over and not use lube.

The PV does not meet the warranty requirements, however, if it needs to go in for warranty work, it is a 2 minute process to put the factory tune back on the ECM. They will be able to tell it has been flashed, but they will not be able to tell what it was flashed by.

As Jack noted, the DK Custom A/C's have external breather systems (EBS). Almost every other A/C out there does not. The absence of an EBS reduces performance, makes the bike run hotter, causes tune instability, and reduces engine life. See photos below of what garbage goes into the engine withOUT an EBS.

In the rare occasion that a bike needs to go in for warranty work while on a trip, picking up a stock air cleaner for under $50 (wherever you happen to be) is easy. Changing the A/C back to factory takes 20-30 minutes at an easy pace.

In over a quarter million miles of traveling Away from home, I've taken 1 bike, 1 time to a Dealership...and it was not for engine warranty, it was for a panhard rod.

Not saying it doesn't happen, but it is rare, and to have your bike run compromised on the off-chance that it may need warranty work away from home does not seem like a good trade-off, especially when it is so easy to put it back to stock before taking it in.

Regarding heat-The M8's run just as hot as the Twin Cams...which is too hot for their own good. What HD has done is a much better job at shielding that heat from hitting the rider. This reduction in felt heat leads folks to believe that they run cooler, which is not the case. See Report LINK on how and why they run too hot for their own good.

Kevin

GoSlo · Mar 19, 2019

This is an older thread, but have another question....

DK offers brass breather bolts so you don't have to have the EBS with hoses and a filter at the end of them. How do these breather bolts work? Where does the 'gunk' go to once it reaches the end of the bolt and filter? Do these have to be cleaned more often than the 'normal' EBS offered by DK?

Thanks!

Jack Klarich · Mar 19, 2019

GoSlo said:
DK offers brass breather bolts so you don't have to have the EBS with hoses and a filter at the end of them. How do these breather bolts work? Where does the 'gunk' go to once it reaches the end of the bolt and filter? Do these have to be cleaned more often than the 'normal' EBS offered by DK?

Thanks!

These have a foam behind the screen. Remove the snap ring and clean them, re install. The oil and vapor will exit thru the foam and screen. Depending on how tight your engine is and how well your oil pump works you should not have too much mist coming out of these breathers. I have them on my M8 FLRT they work good

midiwiz · Mar 19, 2019

GoSlo said:
DK offers brass breather bolts so you don't have to have the EBS with hoses and a filter at the end of them. How do these breather bolts work? Where does the 'gunk' go to once it reaches the end of the bolt and filter? Do these have to be cleaned more often than the 'normal' EBS offered by DK?

Thanks!

um yeah.... shows you have a 2018 triglide - not the bolts you need the breather kit. The bolts won't work. So you route the hose from the kit up to the frame under the tank and run it under the seat to end up in the 'tray' that is under the rear seat. I highly recommend getting the new version of the can when you get this.

GoSlo · Mar 19, 2019

Jack Klaric These have a foam behind the screen. Remove the snap ring and clean them said:
Jack, thanks for the reply. So I'm assuming I was correct in thinking that if I use these, then I won't need the hoses and hanging filter. What's the drawback using these? It seems like it would be much simpler and a cleaner look. Maybe it doesn't work quite as well or cleaning would have to be done more often?

I've got a 2018 with just under 8,000 miles and stock as far as engine/headers/exhaust go. I have done all the cooling mods with the exception of the oil filter relocation kit and want to add the stage 1 air cleaner from DK.

GoSlo · Mar 19, 2019

midiwiz said:
um yeah.... shows you have a 2018 triglide - not the bolts you need the breather kit. The bolts won't work. So you route the hose from the kit up to the frame under the tank and run it under the seat to end up in the 'tray' that is under the rear seat. I highly recommend getting the new version of the can when you get this.

Thanks for the feedback. DK's site says that these work on TC and M8's. Is there something I'm missing?

Question about new air cleaner

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