Oil Overspray into Air Filter

[PopDukes]

Anyone had this issue on a 09 TG? Twice now I have had oil get into the air filter and spray over the side of my TG.

Oil was not over-filled, synthetic is used, run bike at 2500-3000 rpm, one time in extreme desert heat the other in mid 70's. Both times windy (15-25mph) and after long periods of riding (maybe 300+ miles).

Also, anyone elsed brakes sqeak when coasting? Have you addressed with your dealer and received any resolution?

Thanks in advance for any of your replies.

 

[Gorilla]

PopDukes,

Are you reading the correct side of the dip stick to determine a full oil level?

I have not seen a TG oil dip stick, but according to my HD parts manuals they are using the same dip stick on the TG as the 07 and up Touring bikes, which I have seen a lot of. Now you have to make sure you are using the correct side of that dip stick to read your oil level. The touring side is for checking the level of a 2 wheel touring bike on its jiffy stand. The other side was originally placed on the dip stick for touring bikes that had a side car attached and therefor the bike was level not tilted to the side on the jiffy stand when checking the oil. The side car, side of the dip stick is the same side you should be reading for the oil level on your trike, because the engine is straight up and down not tilted just like a bike would be with a sidecar attached. The full oil level difference between the two sides is about a 1/4 of a quart. So if you are reading a full level on the wrong side of the dip stick on your trike you are actually almost 1/4 of a quart over full. You can tell the correct side by looking in your owners manual for a picture. The correct side has the words "HARLEY DAVIDSON" and 2 diamonds on it, on either side of the words "HARLEY DAVIDSON". The WRONG side says "ADD QT" and "FULL HOT" with a !X!X!X!X!X!X! in between. On the correct side of the dip stick a full reading is when the oil level hot is on the top diamond above the "H" in Harley. The add one quart level is the diamond below the "N" in Davidson. These reading are when the engine is "HOT" at normal temperature. When you change the oil you can "COLD" check the level by filling the oil pan until the oil reaches the "Y" in Harley. You then ride the trike until "HOT" at normal running temperature and check the oil. If below the top diamond then fill to the top diamond which equals the full hot. If you fill to the top diamond on a cold engine then you end up over full at normal running temperature. If you were using the wrong side of the dip stick you also ended up with a to full condition.

The issue of oil coming out the air cleaner is that when your engine gets hot the oil expands. The oil is expanding to the point that you are over full (or you might of been over full to start with per above). When the engine oil is over full it gets up in the breathers for the rocker arms covers as a liquid instead of a vapor and works it's way to the air cleaner through the vapor ports from the rocker covers as a liquid instead of a vapor. Then it comes out of the air cleaner onto you and your trike. The vapors get sucked into the intake but the liquid does not.

If you want to check this when the oil is coming out the air cleaner, stop when it's really hot and you have been riding like you point out several hundred miles and check the level. You should read an overfull condition.

Now if this is happening even though you have checked normal running hot fill level and verified that you are filled to the correct level, then: just take a couple of ounces of oil out. You will not hurt anything by running just a little low.

I do not think that it will be necessary to run a little low, because I think you will find that you are over full.

Ted




If you are using the correct side and are getting this problem e oil is changed

 

[1550vt]

Much of it has to do with the continued problems the MOCO has had with breathing issues in the V-Twin. I don't mean as in air breathing, but venting the crankcase. In the old days, we just vented the crankcase to the air like early automobiles. Nowadays, they are vented into the air breather area through some vents-n-flappers up in the heads. This problem does not seem to manifest itself in all engines and it also varied with engines in the EVO family. In early TC-88's a lot of it was blamed on the return (scavenge) side of the oil pump, most "experts" said the pump capacity was too small allowing excess oil to get trapped in the crankcase...foam up and out the vents into the air breather. Right away the after market crowd came out with expensive oil pump replacements. The MOCO actually enlarged the pump in recent model years. Could be a problem with the vents and vent system, but it is related to how the crankcase venting is accomplished. Like I said, the degree of the problem is varied among engines, even of the same model year.

There are various fixes to help the problem as lots of after market suppliers sell venting systems to get it out of the intake system. Sorry to say that some of this is natural in some motors at interstate speeds and is aggravated in hot weather. I expect it would have to get really, really bad to have your dealer actually crack things open and look at those umbrella valves up in the heads. If it becomes a real bother to you and HD won't look at it, you may eventually have to resort to one of the after market fixes.
Of course, you can always spend $500 or so to get one of those over-sized oil pumps that they say will cure this problem and then pay somebody another $500-or-so to install it.

Out of the last 4 or 5 Dressers I have owned, a couple of them would dirty the bike up a bit and 2-3 of them never blew-out a drop...go figure!

 

[PopDukes]

Thank you very much for your detailed replies. It is very helpful.

After some other feedback, I'm wondering if is caused by long periods f riding at 65mph using the cruse control?

 

[1550vt]

If you put-it-in-the-wind on long rides at interstate speeds on a warm day.....it is likely to weep a little. The oil vapor will wet the air filter and the interior of the breather, then drip. The hotter the engine gets the worse it will be, so anything you can do to make it run cooler will help. I am sure you have read all the posts concerning the heat in the twin-cam engine. Everybody does what they can, but it is just naturally going to be hot. Different brands/viscosities of oil may help, but if you have a marginal or not-so-perfect breathing system, you will need to pull the breather off on occasion and clean things up.

Those that don't think they have this problem really do...just not so bad as others. That is hot oil vapor being forced up out of the engine crankcase and out the breather orifices and into the breather cavity.

 

[tkglider]

Can it be because of too much oil?how bout a small piece of foam in the catch box?

 

[1550vt]

It's the oil that is pumped into the engine and winds up in the lower crankcase, which is suppose to be pulled out by the scavenge half of the pump. The pump has two sides, one for supply and one for return. It's a dry-sump engine and it doesn't like a lot of loose oil hanging around down in there and the scavenge-side of the pump is suppose to suck it out. The oil vapor blow-by is sometimes due to poor pump performance, misalignment of the pump or something wrong with the breather system in the top end. After market gadgets are available to vent the stuff, but if you already have a stage I breather, you can just plug the hole in the back plate where the vent line connects and extend that line toward the back of the bike/trike or down through the bottom of the frame somewhere and stick a little filter on the end of it. The best fix (but not the least expensive and troublesome) is to go in there and fix/replace the pump.

 

[BlueTrinity]

Pop,

I agree with all the cause possibilities that vt has put forth and everyone of those would fall under the terms of the warranty.

Have you addressed this with the dealer? Hopefully you have a good enough dialog with him (or her) to get some help.
If I had it and it was still under warranty, I'd be ragging on them pretty hard. And if that didn't help, I would be in contact with Harley.

The one statement I disagree with is "Those that don't think they have this problem really do...just not so bad as others."

I rode my '96 Classic for 12 years and no oiling of the filter ever and I've been on the '06 trike for 2 years and likewise absolutely no oil in the breather or filter...EVER. :no:

I did ride a '91 Sporty for about 10 years before that and did collect oil in the breather, but Harley said to expect that and even advised the washing of the filter at oil changes in the service manual.

 

[1550vt]

That's great Dave. I have had a couple that did not do it to bad, but just about every air cleaner I have had off will have some sign of oil vapor residue in there, especially if you run them hard in hot weather. Pops probably would like to have the problem of being that lucky. Maybe they will fix him up.

 

[BlueTrinity]

My bad! I didn't intend to sound like I was challenging your knowledge or wisdom vt.

Maybe I've just been one of the lucky ones, but my point was that this is a new trike and Harley certainly has an obligation to correct what is an obvious defect.

Sorry if it sounded like an attack. :blush:

 

[1550vt]

Not a problem, and I was not trying to come back at you either. Every time somebody declares "never has" or "always does", he is leaving himself open to get shot down. I am sure there are lots of them out there that don't bleed a bit, or at least don't do it enough to be noticeable. Lets still just hope Pop's can be fixed.

 

[triguy]

The TG manual does not say to use the crankcase dipstick side that says "Harley Davidson". It says to use the side with the small squares on it and the range indicated with the "full hot vehicle upright". The illustration shows the bottom of the range as being a quart low, the middle of the range being the cold check normal level, and the top of the range being the "full" (hot check) level.
After my 1000 mi svc at dealer, I found my oil level to be at the "full" mark when I checked it cold, so I removed over a pint of oil. Maybe the dealer mechanics are not up on the TG mechanical differences..

 

[1550vt]

We need to remember that this is a dry sump engine. Under perfect operating conditions, there should be little-if-any oil down in the bottom of the crank case. The oil tank is only used to store an adequate amount of oil to allow full flow around the engine, get everything lubricated and have enough volume to cool down between circuits. The oil you put into the tank does not run down into the engine, it has to be pumped from the tank through the engine and back to the tank. It will not hurt a thing to have the tank slightly over-full. I run 4.5 quarts in mine due to a large oil cooler that stores around a quart when it is in full cool mode. The blow-by PopDuke's has is from residual oil floating around down in the crank case that was not pumped out and sent back to the oil tank.

 

[PopDukes]

Thanks Everyone.

Bike is still at dealers (more than a week). Even after speaking to Rep and me calling Harley, there is nothing found that should of caused the problem. They do say my riding habits probably cause it. Long cruse control use at 65 mph.

This is twice now this happened and both times I will agree I was riding long periods using cruse control. The overflow issue appears will never be directly answered and resolved.

Personally, I am now convinced it is caused by the excessive oil heat. It has been measured as high as 297 degrees. Have asked the dealer MANY times about this and they just blow it off. This visit I have pushed for some answers. At least for the oil temp.

They claim the Harley Rep here in SoCal has given my dealer his contact in tech support to get a factory spec on Tuesday. Will not hold my breath.

I am convinced that 297 degrees is unacceptable and the bike should never get that hot. The weight of the TG, maybe 250?? Have been trying so hard to learn about this and am unable to obtain any direct specification for this 09 TG anywhere, even from Harley.

Oh well. Going to pick the bike up Tuesday and get back to riding!

 

[1550vt]

You can visit all over the various forums and find this heat issue posted everywhere. The guys that know how to do this re-tune it and richen up the fuel mixture so it will run cooler. It's just a well known issue with these engines and it's aggravated by the poor air-flow across the engine on a trike. Maybe some of these guys will chime in here and suggest a fix, but it will take some software adjustments and possibly some hardware as well. Meantime, run the very best oil you can find in there and lots of us run Mobil 1 V-Twin 20-50. I don't want to start yet another oil argument, but I would keep a good synthetic in there and that could be Syn-3 if you want to stick with the HD product. I can speak from experience that Mobil 1 takes a lot of noise out of my engine and I think it runs a bit cooler also. Synthetics will handle the heat much better.

Yep...if your oil is that hot, it will only aggravate the vaporization. You will see it on those long cruises at interstate speeds. I figured Harley would tell you "that's the way it is" and "they all do it". You may have to live with it to protect your warrany (for what that's worth) until you can take it to somebody that will fix it for you.

 

[John Luciano]

A guy I knew ( @^$$%!$ ) had it happen to his 2004 Duce and it dripped down on the motor. They did something don't remember what but never heard him complain again.

 

[dwiht]

Mine did that once after riding on the freeway into a headwind. Bike got hot and oil came out of the aircleaner when I parked it. I cleaned it up, cleaned up the air filter, and learned not ride it so hard in a headwind. It hasn't happened since. I have a stage one setup, screaming eagle pipes, and the stage one download also so the bike normally runs cool. I found that running in fifth gear at 65 gives me the best gas mileage and the trike doesn't work that hard. Hope you find a solution.
DW