Christened in the pouring rain

[rog1215]

Hello all, i have been lurking for about a month. I have been riding 2 wheel harleys for 32 years with both legs and as of 87 with one left leg. i have had no problem using only the front brake and very limited control of the rear brake. God has been on my side and with many thousands of miles and 2 trips up to the summit of MT washington i am still almost in one piece !

After this years 4000 mile trip to the black hills my wife decieded to sell her 03 softail and ride with me again, well its been 6 years since that happened last and i a not comfortable with her added weight and less braking. Well as luck would have it we stopped in a dealership in SD and saw a tri-glide, that solved the problem. Mine will be here this friday and i am chomping at the bit. I am getting the street glide version in vivid black. I am most interested in linking up the brakes on this unit and have done some research through the years.

First off if you try to use the existing stock front brake resivior it probably wont be sufficient for all brakes. and the use of a proporting valve is highly recomened to dial in the proper bias for the front and rear brakes. Wilwood makes a good one, i have one that has been sitiing on my shelve for years and i am determined to link the brakes on this trike with it.

like the earlier poster i have not quite decied how yet but am open to all recomendatiuons and ideas. Oh by the way i am a Licensed gunsmith and firearms dealer by trade so if anyone needs work let me know, i am busy but can always fit in more

8-21-09

Well i went and picked her up yesterday at Dothan Harley and just as i finished the paperwork the sky opened up! No Problem rode many miles on 2 wheels in the rain and figured this was no problem. I was right,tracked like an indy car and i felt very stabile even in the pouring rain, today i will give her a quick rinse and take her for a south ga cruise

Regards, Roger Jillson

Georgia

 

[Juju]

Welcome aboard, Roger!

I can check my fluids, tire pressure, and a few other things, but beyond that, I'm no mech, so no help here re: the brakes. I just wanted to say :clan: and I'm sure some more qualified person than me will chime in soon with some ideas for you.

Too bad about the rain on your maiden voyage, but at least you were on three stable wheels!

 

[1550vt]

There have been other posts on other sites about this that could be helpful.

It goes without even saying that about the last thing anybody needs to do is monkey with the brakes on a trike, but I fully understand that your needs dictate some modifications. First of all, never ever put your total stopping faith in just the front brakes. Sure, it will stop under normal circumstances, but put the machine on some damp pavement and you simply do not have enough contact-patch on that front wheel to stop it. Unlike a 2-wheeler, you can use the rears heavily and the machine will not swap-ends with you as long as the rears are balanced. I would say that if you have to make a choice as to which end to brake...I would set it up to activate the rears only.

The front MC will not likely have enough volume to activate all four calipers. You can find larger master cylinders, but finding one that will properly fit the HD is another issue. Here is what I would try first...dissable ONE of the front brake calipers. Just plug it off and plumb the MC up and see if it will clamp down on the two rears and the one front. If it will, then you can work on your proportioning to suit your needs. If it will not clamp down all three calipers, you can search for smaller calipers.

The rears are Hayes brakes and I am sure they did not invent a special caliper mounting and likely you can find some calipers that will bolt down on the brackets in place of the stock units.

Most calipers are built to stardardized mounting specs.

You need to arrive at a proper ratio between the MC and the caliper volume. Fronts are usually set-up for a soft feel and rears for more of a "wooden" feel. You are going off into unknown territory here and will arrive at something you can get use to.

If all else fails, I would simply see if the front MC will activate JUST the rears and get used to working with just the rears. Of course....all this is very stupid to suggest that you disconncet any brake device on the trike, but you realize you will be taking some chances here no matter what you do and I don't even know if we are talking about ABS here either, which would bring on other issues.

This can be fixed and all it takes is a little engineering, somebody willing to do all the work, take the risk involved and of course...money.

 

[1550vt]

Supplemental Information:

You can go Google-up "master cylinder ratio" and find some good stuff concerning ratios between MC volumes and caliper volumes. If you know the size of the stock MC (something like a 13/16 or 5/8) you can find a chart that will tell you the area of the MC. Then, search-out the poop on the calipers like piston size, number of pistons, etc, or maybe even a figure for their area and figure a ratio. Basically, fronts are usually in the teens, like from 17 and up. Sport bikes now have adjustable levers to set that for the desired feel. Rears are usually a lower ratio like around a 10-12. The higher number will result in a "mushy" feel and the lower number a more "wooden" feel.

I went through all this on a disc brake conversion and found a set of rear calipers that would match-up to my stock rear master cylinde, because I could not find a larger MC to fit the bike. I think I arrived at around a 14-15, which is a little soft for the rears, but mine work great. I am sure you could eventually find some calipers that would work with the front stock MC. It will just take some digging.

I will be happy to help you with this.

 

[rog1215]

1550vt,

I like your plan of attack and also heed your warnings. I have been building Harleys for 32 years so i understand the dynamics and risks. I am going to try your plan first by disabling a front caliber just to see if this will put me anywhere in the ballpark. Another poster mentioned transfering the rear brake to the left side above the shifter on the frame with a lever that would give good access and leverage. i am thinking about possibly just using a transfer linkage to the left side via the front down tubes, it has been my experience that simpler is generally better, so i approach things that way.

Thanks for your imput and i will keep you guys posted as to my progress.

If anyone knows of pictures or links on this subject i would gladly check them out.

Roger

 

[1550vt]

Good idea. I had also considered moving the foot-brake over to the left side and recommend that to someone on another site. I also had the hair-brain idea of installing electric trailer brakes on the rear. They would not be as smooth as hydraulics, but they would come in handy if you had to stop and could be actuated with a button on the handlebar. Calipers are headed that way anyhow. They are already working on electric calipers for production cars. If they can produce a fly-by-wire throttle, they will certainly do a brake-by-wire system soon enough.

I really like the simplicity of trying to make three calipers work. There are numerous rides out there that run only one rotor and caliper on the front. I think the most you gain with the second caliper and rotor on the front is like 20% or so. That would only take a longer brake line from the rear tee and a double banjo bolt on the front MC. Since you have the brake switch in the front MC...the brake light will operate as normal.

The beautiful thing about this on a trike is that as long as you apply equal pressure to both rear calipers....it's not going to come around on you. I have slammed on my rears to see if I could ever swing it and it simply slides both rear wheels. If you can't make all three work, see if you can just make the back ones work. If you have been around for as long as me, you will remember that back-in-the-day, lots of scooters never even had a front brake. Those were the days you actually had to "drive" one as opposed to just "riding" one.

These trikes will stop very well on just the rears, however...I would be suspect of the Hayes brakes and production run pads. I understand many TG owners are eating them up in just a few thousand miles. You can find better pads. It's a real pity that the MOCO did not simply install one rear caliper over one rotor at the drive pulley. Some kits only use one caliper/rotor centered over the drive pulley. That would make things a lot easier.

Get on in there and tear some stuff up....let us know how you're doing!

 

[rog1215]

heres an update on my brake conversion. Like most projects i have tackled there is always something that makes the plausable a little more complicated. I wanted to tie my rear line to the tee under my triple tree by removing one of the front calipers. This would be a simple way of determining if the volume of the MC would cover the 2 small rears and one big caliper front.

The problem arose when i found out that harley uses a "fused" system that makes the tees and lines all one piece! Great for production and liability issues but a real PITA for someone doing modifications on their system. Okay as of today the front lines and tee have been replaced with "Russel" stainless and the proportioing valve has been mounted on a braket under the seat for easy access. i am waiting on a order for the rear brake lines and tee, which will come off the calipers go through the valve and then go forward to the open tee port under he triple tree.

I am confident this will work due to the decreased size of the rear calipers. my only point of concern is the movement incured by the turning of the handlebars on the line going to the rear. I can mimnimize the amount of movement but really cannot tell if it is going to be an issue untill i actually hook it up when the new parts arrive.

so far i am only about 300.00 into this as i have a wholesale account with a llarge bike parts supplier and that helps. I have left the stock rear brake lines and tee going to the original rear pedal MC intact so when i sell i can just hook it back up for new owner.

Well all imput is always welcome, i have to go work on some guns to pay for all this

 

[rog1215]

Well heres an update on the brake conversion.

After making a bracket to hold the bias valve under the frame member which resides under the seat, i ran my russel braided lines to a new tee below the valve and attached it to the same bolt that holds the original tee. i then ran new lines to both calipres on the rear and tied the old lines in place so they could be reattached if i sell her in the future.

The line coming in from the front is stainless russell 54" long and it goes neatly under the taks on the left side. it ties into the new front tee which has a line going to the front left caliper and then up to the master cylinder. The right front caliper is capped off.

After bleeding the system i set the bike in gear and got her wheels spinning pretty good up on the stands. after dialing in about 3/4 rear bias with remaing 1/4 to front i took her down and ran her down the road in front of the house, the results are better than i ever would have expected. The lever activats with about 1/2" travel and the feel is no differnt than the stock front setup. If you choose to clamp down hold on tight because the wheels will STOP! :yes:

I have no doubt i could achieve a lockup with more bias toward the rear, but i am quite happy with what i have. i appreciate all the help here and if anyone want a parts breakdown for their own conversion e-mail me and i will help. Thanks VT1550 for the simple approach!

regards, roger

 

[BinIdaho]

Welcome to the trike world Roger.

Barbara