To cam or not to cam

[engprosinc]

I have an 05 Ultra with Lehman Renegade, 103 CI engine with SE 203 cams, 5-speed tranny, fuel injected, V&H 4" slash cuts with inserts, and 21K on the clock. The cam was in the engine when I bought the trike.

On a recent trip to VT, the trike ran well on flat roads with reasonable acceleration, but lacked the stones to climb some of the steeper roads with the throttle just about wide open. Other trikes with the same engine, but different cams, passed me going up. On flat roads, the engine seems to run better at 2,000 RPM minimum whenever I am in 5th gear. The previous owner noted the same issue.

I heard more noise from the top end than I think is normal when I pushed the engine on hills. I think it is time to take a a look inside the cam chest. While it is open, I want to change the cams.

Any suggestions concerning the cam of choice?

While I am at it, I will change the lifters, too. From the noise I heard, I think they aren't pumping up at higher revs. Any recommendations? S&S?

AMS?

I will install new adjustable push rods, and upgrade with an RCC-2 cam plate that will bring all the interior goodies in the chest up to 2013 specs. Good idea or not?

From my research so far, I am considering a set of Woods TCW-6R cams per Bob Wood's recommendation.

Any yay's or nay's, or "are you nuts?" and if so, why?

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I have an 05 Ultra with Lehman Renegade, 103 CI engine with SE 203 cams, 5-speed tranny, fuel injected, V&H 4" slash cuts with inserts, and 21K on the clock. The cam was in the engine when I bought the trike.

On a recent trip to VT, the trike ran well on flat roads with reasonable acceleration, but lacked the stones to climb some of the steeper roads with the throttle just about wide open. Other trikes with the same engine, but different cams, passed me going up. On flat roads, the engine seems to run better at 2,000 RPM minimum whenever I am in 5th gear. The previous owner noted the same issue.

I heard more noise from the top end than I think is normal when I pushed the engine on hills. I think it is time to take a a look inside the cam chest. While it is open, I want to change the cams.

Any suggestions concerning the cam of choice?

While I am at it, I will change the lifters, too. From the noise I heard, I think they aren't pumping up at higher revs. Any recommendations? S&S?

AMS?

I will install new adjustable push rods, and upgrade with an RCC-2 cam plate that will bring all the interior goodies in the chest up to 2013 specs. Good idea or not?

From my research so far, I am considering a set of Woods TCW-6R cams per Bob Wood's recommendation.

Any yay's or nay's, or "are you nuts?" and if so, why?

Well to start with the question on cams, what do you know about the 103 engine build? Does it have head work? What was the static compression of the build? What size Throttle body?

Just picking a cam for the engine based on what you think isnt smart. It might work and it might not. Cams are based on the the engine build meeting criteria.

Exceed the criteria of the cam profile and you have a hot running pinging engine. Pick a cam that the engine doesnt meet the criteria of the cam and it will be a lack luster sluggish engine.

Depending on your exhaust the 203 cams might need some additional back pressure to pick up the low end torque numbers some along with a good tune. Having a free flowing exhaust can hurt your low end torque. All stock and mild performance engines still require back pressure.

When your working in the cam chest and changing the cams, change the cam bearings. Its cheap insurance while your in there. Bob Wood cams do perform, alot of his cams have valve train noise that you will hear. Many of the cam profiles have steep ramps and short durations causing the valve train noise.

The noise you heard from the engine going up hills was it pinging ( detonation ), that could be from poor gas, a bad tune or both.

Since your engine is a 05 was the engine updated with the hybrid cam plate? Harley had many engine failure due to the spring loaded cam chain tensioners.

The SE kit also included the newer high volume oil pump for more oil pressure, oil fed cam tensioners ( same as the current twin cams) and a billet cam plate.

Lifters, AMS & S&S are good lifters. Along with Gaterman, Head Quarters Black Ops lifters to name a few.

Now here is what I know from my own experience with running a 103. The engine is not a good platform for a trike. Its too small for what it has to do. A trike kit adds 200lbs of extra laden weight to start. If your over 150lbs wet, its going to struggle to run up the mountain. The trike is not aerodynamic, add wind resistance and or a steep enough hill it runs out power.

The 103 you have in your trike is not going to be as quick as it would be in a 2 wheel bike. There are improvements that can be made to have it perform better, but understand you will hit the ceiling at some point with the engine size in a trike

[msocko3]

Well to start with the question on cams, what do you know about the 103 engine build? Does it have head work? What was the static compression of the build? What size Throttle body?

Just picking a cam for the engine based on what you think isnt smart. It might work and it might not. Cams are based on the the engine build meeting criteria. Exceed the criteria of the cam profile and you have a hot running pinging engine. Pick a cam that the engine doesnt meet the criteria of the cam and it will be a lack luster sluggish engine.

Depending on your exhaust the 203 cams might need some additional back pressure to pick up the low end torque numbers some along with a good tune.

Having a free flowing exhaust can hurt your low end torque. All stock and mild performance engines still require back pressure.

When your working in the cam chest and changing the cams, change the cam bearings. Its cheap insurance while your in there. Bob Wood cams do perform, alot of his cams have valve train noise that you will hear. Many of the cam profiles have steep ramps and short durations causing the valve train noise.

The noise you heard from the engine going up hills was it pinging ( detonation ), that could be from poor gas, a bad tune or both.

Since your engine is a 05 was the engine updated with the hybrid cam plate? Harley had many engine failure due to the spring loaded cam chain tensioners. The SE kit also included the newer high volume oil pump for more oil pressure, oil fed cam tensioners ( same as the current twin cams) and a billet cam plate.

Lifters, AMS & S&S are good lifters. Along with Gaterman, Head Quarters Black Ops lifters to name a few.

Now here is what I know from my own experience with running a 103. The engine is not a good platform for a trike.

Its too small for what it has to do. A trike kit adds 200lbs of extra laden weight to start. If your over 150lbs wet, its going to struggle to run up the mountain. The trike is not aerodynamic, add wind resistance and or a steep enough hill it runs out power.

The 103 you have in your trike is not going to be as quick as it would be in a 2 wheel bike. There are improvements that can be made to have it perform better, but understand you will hit the ceiling at some point with the engine size in a trike

[engprosinc]

[QUOTE=FLTR2008TRIKE;186311]Well to start with the question on cams, what do you know about the 103 engine build? Does it have head work? What was the static compression of the build? What size Throttle body?

Just picking a cam for the engine based on what you think isnt smart. It might work and it might not. Cams are based on the the engine build meeting criteria. Exceed the criteria of the cam profile and you have a hot running pinging engine. Pick a cam that the engine doesnt meet the criteria of the cam and it will be a lack luster sluggish engine.

Thanks for your feedback.

The original owner had the trike "built" by a HD dealer in PA in 2005.

An SE 103 engine with #203 cams was installed. I don't believe the heads were worked. I believe the cam plate is "stock" and that is why I want to go in and check things out while changing the cams.

I plan on changing the cam bearings, lifters and rods if, and when I change the cams. I am considering a gear drive cam set up from Andrews.

I have heard about noise from Wood's cams, too.

The noise I hear definitely isn't a ping (preignition). It sounds like valves, but with a shorty helmet and 60+ MPG, it is really difficult to pinpoint the source of the noise. I heard this before I changed the stock pipes to V&H slash cuts. It came along with the trike when I bought it.

I have the HP I need on a flat road. I lack the torque at lower RPM's. Several people on this website, and others said the 203 isn't the right cam. I am going by what they say, plus the feedback from Andrews, AMS, Woods, etc..

The way I figure it, I should check the chain tensioners even if I don't change the cams.

My intuition tells me that I could get a better cam, but I realize that the three wheeler isn't a two wheeler...and I miss that.

Thanks again. Will post any results.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

[quote=engprosinc;187103]

Well to start with the question on cams, what do you know about the 103 engine build? Does it have head work? What was the static compression of the build? What size Throttle body?

Just picking a cam for the engine based on what you think isnt smart. It might work and it might not. Cams are based on the the engine build meeting criteria. Exceed the criteria of the cam profile and you have a hot running pinging engine. Pick a cam that the engine doesnt meet the criteria of the cam and it will be a lack luster sluggish engine.

Thanks for your feedback.

The original owner had the trike "built" by a HD dealer in PA in 2005.

An SE 103 engine with #203 cams was installed. I don't believe the heads were worked. I believe the cam plate is "stock" and that is why I want to go in and check things out while changing the cams.

I plan on changing the cam bearings, lifters and rods if, and when I change the cams. I am considering a gear drive cam set up from Andrews.

I have heard about noise from Wood's cams, too.

The noise I hear definitely isn't a ping (preignition). It sounds like valves, but with a shorty helmet and 60+ MPG, it is really difficult to pinpoint the source of the noise. I heard this before I changed the stock pipes to V&H slash cuts. It came along with the trike when I bought it.

I have the HP I need on a flat road. I lack the torque at lower RPM's. Several people on this website, and others said the 203 isn't the right cam. I am going by what they say, plus the feedback from Andrews, AMS, Woods, etc..

The way I figure it, I should check the chain tensioners even if I don't change the cams.

My intuition tells me that I could get a better cam, but I realize that the three wheeler isn't a two wheeler...and I miss that.

Thanks again. Will post any results.

Gear drive cams are not needed unless your trying to squeeze every last ounce of power from your engine. Additionally they require your pinion end of the flywheel assembly to have less than .003 runout. Anymore and the gear drive wont last long because the pinion end will "wobble" and break teeth.

Valve clatter is detonation. The 203 cams were designed for a 96" engine with mild head work. Your engine is a 103 which in a simple way of stating is the equivalent of the 96" engine with the head work. Obviously the engine tuner isnt calibrated correctly if your hearing valve clatter.

I still think with a possible muffler change and a good tune you can get the torque back that your not getting currently.

I think you right in wanting to check the cam chest since the work was done in 2005.

Here is the listing for the SE upgrade kit >>

Screamin' Eagle Hydraulic Cam Chain Tensioner Plate Upgrade Kit-25284-11 | Engines, Transmissions & Components | Official Harley-Davidson Online Store

[msocko3]

[quote=FLTR2008TRIKE;187113]

Gear drive cams are not needed unless your trying to squeeze every last ounce of power from your engine. Additionally they require your pinion end of the flywheel assembly to have less than .003 runout. Anymore and the gear drive wont last long because the pinion end will "wobble" and break teeth.

Valve clatter is detonation. The 203 cams were designed for a 96" engine with mild head work. Your engine is a 103 which in a simple way of stating is the equivalent of the 96" engine with the head work. Obviously the engine tuner isnt calibrated correctly if your hearing valve clatter.

I still think with a possible muffler change and a good tune you can get the torque back that your not getting currently.

I think you right in wanting to check the cam chest since the work was done in 2005.

Here is the listing for the SE upgrade kit >>

Screamin' Eagle Hydraulic Cam Chain Tensioner Plate Upgrade Kit-25284-11 | Engines, Transmissions & Components | Official Harley-Davidson Online Store

I used to have an 05 Electraglide Classic with the stage 2 which was 95" and SE 203 cams, they pulled pretty good on the bottom, would think they would pull even better in a 103. I think your right on the money about the tune, a lot of torque can be left on the table with a crummy tune.

IMO a down side to installing gear drive on a crank that has not been plugged, welded or both is it can bet with in specs at install and shift later down the line and be out. The factory engine in my 06 Ultra was just a touch below .003 on the pinion side when it was taken to 95" and gear drive cams installed.

Every couple years I would pull the right side apart and check to make sure the RO was still in spec. Finally on one of my checks I found it had shifted and the RO was now .005 which is asking for trouble with gear drive. I built the new 120 with a crank from Darkhorse crank works that is plugged and welded, I figured if I was going to have crank work done I may as well go all the waypepper.

The stock engine now resides in the den.

[engprosinc]

Well to start with the question on cams, what do you know about the 103 engine build? Does it have head work? What was the static compression of the build? What size Throttle body?

Just picking a cam for the engine based on what you think isnt smart. It might work and it might not. Cams are based on the the engine build meeting criteria. Exceed the criteria of the cam profile and you have a hot running pinging engine. Pick a cam that the engine doesnt meet the criteria of the cam and it will be a lack luster sluggish engine.

Depending on your exhaust the 203 cams might need some additional back pressure to pick up the low end torque numbers some along with a good tune.

Having a free flowing exhaust can hurt your low end torque. All stock and mild performance engines still require back pressure.

When your working in the cam chest and changing the cams, change the cam bearings. Its cheap insurance while your in there. Bob Wood cams do perform, alot of his cams have valve train noise that you will hear. Many of the cam profiles have steep ramps and short durations causing the valve train noise.

The noise you heard from the engine going up hills was it pinging ( detonation ), that could be from poor gas, a bad tune or both.

Since your engine is a 05 was the engine updated with the hybrid cam plate? Harley had many engine failure due to the spring loaded cam chain tensioners. The SE kit also included the newer high volume oil pump for more oil pressure, oil fed cam tensioners ( same as the current twin cams) and a billet cam plate.

Lifters, AMS & S&S are good lifters. Along with Gaterman, Head Quarters Black Ops lifters to name a few.

Now here is what I know from my own experience with running a 103. The engine is not a good platform for a trike.

Its too small for what it has to do. A trike kit adds 200lbs of extra laden weight to start. If your over 150lbs wet, its going to struggle to run up the mountain. The trike is not aerodynamic, add wind resistance and or a steep enough hill it runs out power.

The 103 you have in your trike is not going to be as quick as it would be in a 2 wheel bike. There are improvements that can be made to have it perform better, but understand you will hit the ceiling at some point with the engine size in a trike

Thanks for your reply. Your idea about the cam support plate upgrade is good. I will contact the stealership that did the conversion to the big bore 103. As you can see, I still haven't done anything yet, except take the V&H off and install a set or Wild Pigs with the quieter insert. Haven't tried it on the road yet.

Want to see if the cam chain tensioners are OK or not.