Not enough power?

[travler]

Folks, need some good advice. 09 RK recently converted with Motor Trike. Prior to conversion, stage 1, PC V, ran excellent, smooth as glass. After conversion added SS 551 cam, swapped trans sprocket to 30 tooth. Now motor vibrates like hell. Anything above 50mph at 2.8k rpm, and gets worse the faster you go, especially 2 up. Cruising at 70 around 3.2k rpm is not fun anymore. Winding it up to 4.5k to 5k while shifting it smooths out. Have gone over the whole front end, had MT check their part, all ok. Coasting down hill at 75 at idle is smooth. Is the 96 motor too small a platform? Some say get a 103 or 107 kit. After spending this much sure it`s discouraging. Thanks

 

[Lakeman]

The 96 should be fine. I have a stock 88 on a Lehman and it works fine. Sure it would be nice to have more power but you can say that about anything. I would not think the motor being under powered would cause the vibration problem unless you are lugging it and with the sprocket change I would not think you would be doing that. If it were a power problem you would see an improvement riding one up. Do these problems get better if you are one up? I would have to look at the cam install. Good luck

 

[THEREALTRIKKY]

Ok, I have a few points that may help "clarify". Is the vibration speed related or RPM related? Based on your information, it seems as though it's related to RPM's moreso than speed. When you're at 50mph or above and downshift does the vibration change, or stay the same? If you upshift how does that affect it? Mess with the bike in that range, monitor speed AND RPM's.. change them both at different intervals, see how that effects the vibrations. This is some of the best things you can do to help diagnose the cause.

You said "after conversion added SS 551 cam. Was the trike ridden between the trike conversion and cam install, or was the cam done at the time of the install? All of these may seem like "mute points" but are quite important when it comes to diagnosing possible issues.

 

[msocko3]

Folks, need some good advice. 09 RK recently converted with Motor Trike. Prior to conversion, stage 1, PC V, ran excellent, smooth as glass. After conversion added SS 551 cam, swapped trans sprocket to 30 tooth. Now motor vibrates like hell. Anything above 50mph at 2.8k rpm, and gets worse the faster you go, especially 2 up. Cruising at 70 around 3.2k rpm is not fun anymore. Winding it up to 4.5k to 5k while shifting it smooths out. Have gone over the whole front end, had MT check their part, all ok. Coasting down hill at 75 at idle is smooth. Is the 96 motor too small a platform? Some say get a 103 or 107 kit. After spending this much sure it`s discouraging. Thanks

S&S 551 should work fine in the 96" engine. You say you have the PCV, who tuned it when the cams were put in? Does the vibration happen when applying throttle in neutral while setting still? When the cams were installed did they take the extra time to check crankshaft runout? You could have a couple things going on, one could be crankshaft related, it may have shifted causing larger runout which will make it vibrate, normally they'll eat the oil pump before you get a great deal of vibration when the crank shifts, but that isn't always the case. The other thing is it could be in the tune, not enough fuel, to much fuel, timing either to much or not enough all can make an engine vibrate. What kind of fuel mileage do you get?

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I would suggest having the front and rear isolator bushing checked and possibly replaced. Also the upper motor mount should be checked along with the alignment of your trike kit.

 

[pcombe]

:Shrug: This may sound nuts to you, but have you checked your motor mounts? Especially your upper motor mount?
Im really not kidding!

A bike was never meant to be a trike and if you did not beef up your upper motor mount it will break over time.
Making it into a trke puts alot of strain on the engine and will cause it to try and twist in the frame.
It might account for the actions you describe?
Just saying!

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

A bike was never meant to be a trike and if you did not beef up your upper motor mount it will break over time.
Making it into a trke puts alot of strain on the engine and will cause it to try and twist in the frame.
It might account for the actions you describe?
Just saying!

This statement is wrong.

The front upper mount is identical on both 2 wheel and Triglide models for all touring models 2009-2012. Like I have stated it could be a loose setup or bad engine isolator bushings. Loose exhaust system is a possibility.

The other possibility as MSOKO3 pointed out it could be internal with the flywheel assembly going out of balance.

 

[pcombe]

suit yourself.
I never said they were different.
I only suggested they be beefed up.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I've seen this happen several times. What I've seen has nothing to do with it being a conversion or a stock Harley.

Vibrations can come in different forms and for different reasons as has already been stated but all complicated to check when in fact it could be easy.

When a exhaust system is taken off a bike and a new one or the old one reinstalled it could be in a bind. This bind will transmit vibrations to the frame and floorboards.

There is a proper procedure to tighten things up. Such as, if you tighten the exhaust port bracket to the head before aligning the rear pipes and mufflers the exhaust system will not be in a happy place. This puts things in a bind like a solid motor mount. The engine sends vibrations to the frame.

Install the exhaust system loosely. Install all bolts but to not tighten. Shake the exhaust system and let it find its sweet spot where it will rest. Check the front exhaust pipe and make sure it doesn't hit the rear hinge of the back brake peddle. Starting with the muffler hangers tighten the top bolts. Go to the heads and start to snug them up. Work you way to the center cross over and snug the cross over bracket behind the tranny. Shake the exhaust system again making sure it is still in its happy place. Go back to the heads and snug them up to specs. Finish tightening the mufflers then finish off the cross over... the very last thing you do is tighten the bolt under the tranny cover. This will insure you have little to no vibration from the motor going through the exhaust.

As far as tuning. Yes, this could also be the issue. If the PCV wasn't upgraded for the new cams the motor wont run worth a darn especially in the mid range where you are feeling the heavy vibration.

Do you guys remember these shots? This exhaust pipe was installed improperly and was found hitting the rear brake hinge. After it was reset and was in a happy place all the vibrations went away.

 

[time2run]

I had the local Harley shop install a new housing and filter on my 12 T/G a couple of weeks ago and ever since the vibration level between 2500 and 3000 RPM is excessive. The bike just doesn't run as smooth as it used to and doesn't have nearly the power. I'll assume they retuned the bike after installing the new filter however the tech who worked on the bike has been out due to illness and will be back next week. Either the timing is off or they have it tuned too lean.

 

[travler]

Whew! lots of potential problems to check. I`ll make a list and start. Will give you feedback as I go. Thanks guys.

 

[msocko3]

suit yourself

Not all trike kit manufacturers beef up the top motor mount, especially the 09 and newer touring with the redesigned bottom mounting. The only kit manufacturer that I've seen modify or beef up the top mount is Champion, I've looked at several who sell their kits DIY.

- - - Updated - - -

I had the local Harley shop install a new housing and filter on my 12 T/G a couple of weeks ago and ever since the vibration level between 2500 and 3000 RPM is excessive. The bike just doesn't run as smooth as it used to and doesn't have nearly the power. I'll assume they retuned the bike after installing the new filter however the tech who worked on the bike has been out due to illness and will be back next week. Either the timing is off or they have it tuned too lean.

Did the dealer give you a work order or some form of receipt? Normally they detail work done along with what parts. If they installed one of the freer breathing air cleaner setups they should have done at least a download for it, the download will have a PN and cost in the $160+ neighborhood. If you don't find any evidence of a DL follow up with the service manager, after all he is the one responsible for what his happy band of parts changers does. What air filter setup did you go with? Have a PN?

 

[screwball]

The top motor mount on my 09 Tri-glide and '08 Ultra have come loose a couple of times, guess the head temps break down the lock tite. Caused odd vibrations on both vehicles.

Good Luck.

 

[pcombe]

:Shrug: I didn't realize Champion was the only one.
ThumbUp The brackets and heavier stiffener Rod did come standard with my champion kit.

I was also advised by Lee H mann ( Lehman dealer and forum member) that Harley's, with their rubber mounting are notorious for breaking upper motor mounts. I have heard of Horns honking by themselves in a sharp turn and the broken mounts were responsible for that phenomenon also.
I assume a stiffener kit is extra on other manufactures kits for Harley Davidson?
I guess i never noticed that.

Thank you for the education msoko, Your knowledge helps allot of folks!

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

suit yourself.
I never said they were different.
I only suggested they be beefed up.

As per the instructions from Champion the gusset frame stiffening kit only pertains to 1987-2007 models with the motor mount that was under the gas tank and mounted to the backbone of the main frame. 08 and newer HD touring bikes do not need to be stiffened up.

Wrong info is... wrong info.

 

[pcombe]

Thanks for the education.

 

[Oldmsocko]

I have had the top motor mount on my 09 TG come loose and 1 time it broke a bolt. That is something that I now look at.