Better SPARK PLUGS for HD 103cc motor?

[msocko3]

I am alittle confused here. You tell the man that running colder plugs is not good but YOU run a step colder plug. I understand the other stuff but then you say a step colder heat range is better. Maybe not 2 or 3 steps higher then???

Normally 2 steps colder in a stock engine isn't a good thing, it may be too cold. But since HD has been running them lean a person can get away with it. I like to run 1 step colder in high compression engines which my 120 is 10.5:1. When it came to running them in my dads Triglide I trialled them in the 2010 Triglide I used to own 1st, then put them in my dads and made sure they were working as they should. I didn't go to one step colder in the Trikes for any operational issues or reasons, just didn't feel like keeping 2 different heat ranges of plugs laying around.

The risk a person does run is a colder plug may have a fouling issue, all you need is a valve seal to start passing or start moving a little oil past the rings and you could be fouling plugs.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Is it possible to change the values in the ECM that represent knock in a stock engine so that a non-stock (say a Stage II) can still have the timing retard enabled and not sense "ghost knocks"?

TIA for any info/thoughts on this subject.

Kevin

The answer to this part is yes.

Timing table variables are based on engine size, compression, elevation and fuel quality. Your state of calibration can change and will change due to the fuel quality and the elevation. Add in "load" and the factor increases for "knock" or "detonation"

When tuning I wanted to tune my 124" engine on mid grade gas. Having your timing tables setup for high octane can put your calibration at the upper end of the hotter spark range and cause "knock" if you go out riding and happen to get a tankful of fuel that isn't good. Once the ECM learns this with the TTS it will keep the amount of timing retard in its settings until the ecm is reflashed. ( This is based on my tune using the TTS Black dongle box )

[msocko3]

All I can say is.....That there were tests run many years ago about Harley's plugs being too hot. Might have been Kip Woodrig (Woodring)? from Thunder Press who knew of someone that did EXTENSIVE testing on the effects of spark plug heat range on twin cam engines. Yes.... the same H-D plug was run on Evos....but even then, California emmissions compliances were WAY ahead of the Federal Government's.

I am NOT trying to stir up a pot of sh*t, I'm replying to the original poster's question. There IS more than meets the eye.

MY experience is VERY positive on running colder NGK plugs in Harleys.
I have NEVER fouled a NGK plug, but I have seen friends, back in the day, foul Harley plugs

(Now I shall jump off my soapbox....(LOL)

Its all good. I read the article your referring too, he does have a few good points, he also says it should be considered with stock engines and done with HiPo engines. For those who want to read the article it is online and can be found here http://www.thunderpress.net/editoria...2009/05/18.htm. I normally don't tell folks to stray too far from stock on some items, got to remember they may be able to do the modification or change, yet not know how to work through the technical aspects of it. Spark plugs are a good for instance, I'd hate to see someone toss a set of NGK, Autolite, AC etc set of plugs in and not know what to or how to look for what the down side may be, same goes for heat ranges.

Over the years I've had a bunch of folks ask me questions about what modifications work best, what should they or shouldn't they do. I always try to point them in a safe direction, one which has the least amount of risk. When I try something out I always use my stuff to experiment with and realize I suffer the consequences, not to mention the $$$ repair bill.

When it comes to the fancy stuff their doing to spark plugs these days I'm still not convinced its worth the extra money. I once tried a set of Platinum Screamin Eagle spark plugs because the service manager at the dealer gave them too me. I didn't see any difference between them and the plugs I had been running at the time, I still may have them laying around in my tool box after I pulled them with 5,000 miles on them.

[msocko3]

Do you happen to remember how far from spec they were? Reason I ask is that the stock cables have a fairly large acceptable range, according to manual, of 8688-23,178 on the front cylinder and 4188-11,172 on the rear.

It makes sense that if it was out even by 100 on either side, it would not fit the parameters in the ECM and result in retarding. Just curious how far out of those wide parameters your wires had gone.

It was was less than 100, can't remember the exact number. At the time I was running stock HD plugs and the original wires in my 06 Ultra with a 95" Head-Quarters touring build with compression set at 10.1 with 15,000 miles on the original wires. Put a new set of stock replacement wires from the Harley Dealer on and my troubles went away, the same replacement stock wires are still on there with the 120" Head-Quarters build I'm running now.

[Buddy WMC]

That's their job, to put all stock parts back in due to your extended warranty.

Your issue wasn't the Hayden, CW or extra plate clutch pack. It was the compensator from the beginning. I also highly suggest you put in the 480 spring like the rest of us are doing who have the complete combination. Lever pull is the same as the SE spring but you have more lever friction zone with the 480. TGlideStuff.com has the spring for much less than anyone else.

What to do because of the test drive? Let them test it then put it all back in.

Sounds like a plan. They threw out my 480 spring, but Kent at E-One sent me another one at N/C. Happy Thanksgiving and I'll keep you apprised. We need to talk about the 254E's again.
Brian....

[Mr.Wizard]

Kevin

There are many ways to look up Ion Sensing and how it works. Here are a few links but you need to be an engineer to understand it all as written.

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost...rpretation.htm

Here is one of my favorite reads on Closed Loop EGR with Ion Systems. https://app.box.com/s/5gfjzmmd10xsg0atxynq

Believe it or not there are ion sensing systems all around you. Take for example a gas stove or your gas fuel furnace. Anything with a flame that has a spark ignition uses Ion Sensing Technology. Voltage is actually passed through the gas flame and proves a "ground current" for the flame sensor. This 'proving' tells the gas safety there is flame present and to open up the main gas valve. It's called Flame Rectification. I've attached a sample for your reading pleasure.


Once familiar with how the ion sensing actually works you can integrate it into the Delphi system spark control.

In as few and easy to understand words as I can put this; Delphi uses Ion Sensing Technology within the EFI system of a Harley to assist the ECM (computer) protect the motor during cycles of determined or predetermined knock by reducing the timing at the 'sensed' RPM/kPa area of the timing table of each cylinder. This is not new to the industry. It's been used in the automotive field for many years. Remember when the first car came out with a computer? Delphi does this by sending a signal down the plug wire to the plug and measures the resistance during the firing of the cylinder or the non-firing of the cylinder. The resistance changes and the ECM reads the data within milliseconds.

The above links explain Ion Sensing so let's take it from there...

When the ECM detects a knock the data is learned. When the cylinder returns to the exact RPM/kPa this 'learned' area will let the ECM know to reduce the timing so the motor doesn't knock again. How the knock got there or what is creating a ghost knock could be any number of things outside the preset normal Delphi code. This code is within the ECM and hard written in most cases.

How to get rid of these 'learned' timing values is easy. Once the cause is no longer present the learned values will diminish with each key on/key off cycle until they are entirely removed. This is totally different from the adaptive learned values (ALV) for the volumetric efficiencies (VE) which tell the ECM how much air/fuel percentage to give each cylinder at a certain RPM/Throttle Position/kPa. The ALV's are permanent until you remove them by flashing the ECM again or delete them using your tuning software.

Now for causes of spark knock. You've already grasped the normal why with higher compression, aftermarket cam lifts and lope timing, poor gas or incorrect AFR/Lambda settings not to mention a bad timing table setting. The question in this thread has to do with plugs and wires. As there already has been talking-head points above this post you now realize what could happen. The issue is, how to know what resistance is correct for the motor combination of mods. You have just joined a long list of people searching this out and still scratching their heads. The real answer is... there is no way to know without some trial and error. Logic or good old common sense tells us to have a baseline approach when looking for answers. Start with what Harley/Delphi uses. Stock plugs and wires and take them out of the investigate quotient. If knock is still present in the data then there are other ways to reduce that knock.

Gas booster just in case you have old or bad fuel
Adjust your timing down or retard the timing in the areas of knock data
Increase the AFR/Lambda in the same area of knock data
Increase the VE% in the same area of knock data

Now, you ask...

Is it possible to change the values in the ECM that represent knock in a stock engine so that a non-stock (say a Stage II) can still have the timing retard enabled and not sense "ghost knocks"?

Tom says...

Timing table variables are based on engine size, compression, elevation and fuel quality. Your state of calibration can change and will change due to the fuel quality and the elevation. Add in "load" and the factor increases for "knock" or "detonation"

When tuning I wanted to tune my 124" engine on mid grade gas. Having your timing tables setup for high octane can put your calibration at the upper end of the hotter spark range and cause "knock" if you go out riding and happen to get a tankful of fuel that isn't good. Once the ECM learns this with the TTS it will keep the amount of timing retard in its settings until the ecm is reflashed. ( This is based on my tune using the TTS Black dongle box )

I wanted to say... "Once the ECM learns with the TTS" as Tom said, It's not the TTS, it is the Delphi code doing this. Again, you don't have to flash to removed the timing learned values, just fix the issue then key on/key off and they will diminish on their own. If you want to start fresh then by all means flash your calibration again.

Learned values can't be stopped. Not even in open loop AFR 02 sensor switching. These learned timing values will still be applied regardless but there is a way to reduce the effect. Reducing this effect could/may/will cause damage to your motor. I do not practice removing/adjusting them and don't want to teach the procedures to anyone. I do know these reduction values are present in the TTS software, not so sure with other generic flash tuners.




Forgive me guys but I smell Turkey..

[DK Custom Products]

It was was less than 100, can't remember the exact number. At the time I was running stock HD plugs and the original wires in my 06 Ultra with a 95" Head-Quarters touring build with compression set at 10.1 with 15,000 miles on the original wires. Put a new set of stock replacement wires from the Harley Dealer on and my troubles went away, the same replacement stock wires are still on there with the 120" Head-Quarters build I'm running now.

Thank you!

Kevin

[DK Custom Products]

The answer to this part is yes.

Timing table variables are based on engine size, compression, elevation and fuel quality. Your state of calibration can change and will change due to the fuel quality and the elevation. Add in "load" and the factor increases for "knock" or "detonation"

When tuning I wanted to tune my 124" engine on mid grade gas. Having your timing tables setup for high octane can put your calibration at the upper end of the hotter spark range and cause "knock" if you go out riding and happen to get a tankful of fuel that isn't good. Once the ECM learns this with the TTS it will keep the amount of timing retard in its settings until the ecm is reflashed. ( This is based on my tune using the TTS Black dongle box )

Kevin

There are many ways to look up Ion Sensing and how it works. Here are a few links but you need to be an engineer to understand it all as written.

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost...rpretation.htm

Here is one of my favorite reads on Closed Loop EGR with Ion Systems. https://app.box.com/s/5gfjzmmd10xsg0atxynq

Believe it or not there are ion sensing systems all around you. Take for example a gas stove or your gas fuel furnace. Anything with a flame that has a spark ignition uses Ion Sensing Technology. Voltage is actually passed through the gas flame and proves a "ground current" for the flame sensor. This 'proving' tells the gas safety there is flame present and to open up the main gas valve. It's called Flame Rectification. I've attached a sample for your reading pleasure.


Once familiar with how the ion sensing actually works you can integrate it into the Delphi system spark control.

In as few and easy to understand words as I can put this; Delphi uses Ion Sensing Technology within the EFI system of a Harley to assist the ECM (computer) protect the motor during cycles of determined or predetermined knock by reducing the timing at the 'sensed' RPM/kPa area of the timing table of each cylinder. This is not new to the industry. It's been used in the automotive field for many years. Remember when the first car came out with a computer? Delphi does this by sending a signal down the plug wire to the plug and measures the resistance during the firing of the cylinder or the non-firing of the cylinder. The resistance changes and the ECM reads the data within milliseconds.

The above links explain Ion Sensing so let's take it from there...

When the ECM detects a knock the data is learned. When the cylinder returns to the exact RPM/kPa this 'learned' area will let the ECM know to reduce the timing so the motor doesn't knock again. How the knock got there or what is creating a ghost knock could be any number of things outside the preset normal Delphi code. This code is within the ECM and hard written in most cases.

How to get rid of these 'learned' timing values is easy. Once the cause is no longer present the learned values will diminish with each key on/key off cycle until they are entirely removed. This is totally different from the adaptive learned values (ALV) for the volumetric efficiencies (VE) which tell the ECM how much air/fuel percentage to give each cylinder at a certain RPM/Throttle Position/kPa. The ALV's are permanent until you remove them by flashing the ECM again or delete them using your tuning software.

Now for causes of spark knock. You've already grasped the normal why with higher compression, aftermarket cam lifts and lope timing, poor gas or incorrect AFR/Lambda settings not to mention a bad timing table setting. The question in this thread has to do with plugs and wires. As there already has been talking-head points above this post you now realize what could happen. The issue is, how to know what resistance is correct for the motor combination of mods. You have just joined a long list of people searching this out and still scratching their heads. The real answer is... there is no way to know without some trial and error. Logic or good old common sense tells us to have a baseline approach when looking for answers. Start with what Harley/Delphi uses. Stock plugs and wires and take them out of the investigate quotient. If knock is still present in the data then there are other ways to reduce that knock.

Gas booster just in case you have old or bad fuel
Adjust your timing down or retard the timing in the areas of knock data
Increase the AFR/Lambda in the same area of knock data
Increase the VE% in the same area of knock data

Now, you ask...

Tom says...

I wanted to say... "Once the ECM learns with the TTS" as Tom said, It's not the TTS, it is the Delphi code doing this. Again, you don't have to flash to removed the timing learned values, just fix the issue then key on/key off and they will diminish on their own. If you want to start fresh then by all means flash your calibration again.

Learned values can't be stopped. Not even in open loop AFR 02 sensor switching. These learned timing values will still be applied regardless but there is a way to reduce the effect. Reducing this effect could/may/will cause damage to your motor. I do not practice removing/adjusting them and don't want to teach the procedures to anyone. I do know these reduction values are present in the TTS software, not so sure with other generic flash tuners.




Forgive me guys but I smell Turkey..

Thanks guys for the info.

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my question.

My understanding was that the values in the ECM for Ion sensing feedback are NOT adjustable. They are fixed. They cannot be flashed. (I am not referring to the spark tables than can be adjusted, and are adjusted by the ECM learning)

I may have misunderstood, but what I read in the Delphi literature and some other ref. material is that when the signal come back thru the spark plugs, plug wires, coil and into the ECM it is splashed against a Fixed, non-changeable set of values. If all is ok, no change is made to the spark tables, if it is not in parameters, then the ECM retards the timing.

If the above is true, then if the plugs or plug wires are out of spec, they will alter the signal and the ECM will retard the timing when, in fact, it may not need to be retarded, thus resulting in a performance deteriorating spiral. I understand that, and will have some interesting data on plug wires next week after some time at a Dealership and in my shop.

My questions is this- If the knock detection values in the ECM are fixed (hard written) for a stock bike, with stock plugs and stock wires, and stock compression etc., then it would seem that the increased cylinder pressure (which changes the resistance at the tip of the spark plug) from some cams, different than stock AFR, high compression pistons, etc. will also alter the signal to the ECM, resulting in an alteration of the signal and the ECM will retard the timing when it is not needed.

Everything I read seem to indicate they are hard coded, above you say they are hard written in most cases. Is this not the case with current HD ECMS?

If it is, then we know that changing the combustion via cams, afr, etc changes the ionization and thus the resistance at the spark plug, so how does this not result in "ghost knock" signals?

If they are not hard written, then I don't think I have any other questions.

Or maybe it is a feature that the TTS has that can somehow adjust or accommodate for the variance in ion sensing feedback?

Kevin

[msocko3]

Thanks guys for the info.

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my question.

My understanding was that the values in the ECM for Ion sensing feedback are NOT adjustable. They are fixed. They cannot be flashed. (I am not referring to the spark tables than can be adjusted, and are adjusted by the ECM learning)

I may have misunderstood, but what I read in the Delphi literature and some other ref. material is that when the signal come back thru the spark plugs, plug wires, coil and into the ECM it is splashed against a Fixed, non-changeable set of values. If all is ok, no change is made to the spark tables, if it is not in parameters, then the ECM retards the timing.

If the above is true, then if the plugs or plug wires are out of spec, they will alter the signal and the ECM will retard the timing when, in fact, it may not need to be retarded, thus resulting in a performance deteriorating spiral. I understand that, and will have some interesting data on plug wires next week after some time at a Dealership and in my shop.

My questions is this- If the knock detection values in the ECM are fixed (hard written) for a stock bike, with stock plugs and stock wires, and stock compression etc., then it would seem that the increased cylinder pressure (which changes the resistance at the tip of the spark plug) from some cams, different than stock AFR, high compression pistons, etc. will also alter the signal to the ECM, resulting in an alteration of the signal and the ECM will retard the timing when it is not needed.

Everything I read seem to indicate they are hard coded, above you say they are hard written in most cases. Is this not the case with current HD ECMS?

If it is, then we know that changing the combustion via cams, afr, etc changes the ionization and thus the resistance at the spark plug, so how does this not result in "ghost knock" signals?

If they are not hard written, then I don't think I have any other questions.

Or maybe it is a feature that the TTS has that can somehow adjust or accommodate for the variance in ion sensing feedback?

Kevin

Interesting question, one I've never looked into or really thought of. There are some real monster combinations running 12.1 compression and some pretty big cams using the stock ECM, maybe someone will come up with the answer.

[Mr.Wizard]

Thanks guys for the info.

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my question.

My understanding was that the values in the ECM for Ion sensing feedback are NOT adjustable. They are fixed. They cannot be flashed. (I am not referring to the spark tables than can be adjusted, and are adjusted by the ECM learning)

I may have misunderstood, but what I read in the Delphi literature and some other ref. material is that when the signal come back thru the spark plugs, plug wires, coil and into the ECM it is splashed against a Fixed, non-changeable set of values. If all is ok, no change is made to the spark tables, if it is not in parameters, then the ECM retards the timing.

If the above is true, then if the plugs or plug wires are out of spec, they will alter the signal and the ECM will retard the timing when, in fact, it may not need to be retarded, thus resulting in a performance deteriorating spiral. I understand that, and will have some interesting data on plug wires next week after some time at a Dealership and in my shop.

My questions is this- If the knock detection values in the ECM are fixed (hard written) for a stock bike, with stock plugs and stock wires, and stock compression etc., then it would seem that the increased cylinder pressure (which changes the resistance at the tip of the spark plug) from some cams, different than stock AFR, high compression pistons, etc. will also alter the signal to the ECM, resulting in an alteration of the signal and the ECM will retard the timing when it is not needed.

Everything I read seem to indicate they are hard coded, above you say they are hard written in most cases. Is this not the case with current HD ECMS?

If it is, then we know that changing the combustion via cams, afr, etc changes the ionization and thus the resistance at the spark plug, so how does this not result in "ghost knock" signals?

If they are not hard written, then I don't think I have any other questions.

Or maybe it is a feature that the TTS has that can somehow adjust or accommodate for the variance in ion sensing feedback?

Kevin

Yes, the calibrations within the TTS software have predetermined adjustments that the end user can't adjust. This is all done at the factory. There are over 200 set points within the TTS code calibration that the end user can't touch. This is why their library calibrations are for larger cams, head work and higher compression.

I believe what you are trying to understand has multiple facets when the word 'resistance' comes into to play.

The first facet has to do with mechanical resistance. This is what we've been discussing.

Plug wires have a set resistance so we will call this resistance value X
Plugs have a set resistance as well so we will call this resistance value Z
The ECM has a value range for detecting in-range combustion so we will call this range A/B. (What we are calling hard code)
AFR/Lambda, Volumetric Efficiencies, Timing Tables are an adjustable factor that we will call E/F

When a cylinder fires the ECM sends a signal down X/Z. This is a fixed signal. During combustion X/Z must = A/B range or the ECM will call it Knock Retard.

High compression with aftermarket cams and/or head work doesn't affect the set X or Z. However it will effect A/B. (more on this later)

To get A/B back into range you adjust E/F or when using the TTS software..Cam intake and exhaust timing. In a more simple term, you must tune the bike to get back into A/B range.

If you have a skewed X or Z range such as a bad or out of resistance range plug or wire then the ECM signal is doomed from the start. You can continue to adjust E/F with no higher quality efficiency or the reverse, degrading tune.



The next part is tuning equation.... (E/F)



The ECM hard code A/B can be manually switched on or off. (not recommended)

The results or minimum/maximum can be adjusted if left on and retard is detected. (not recommended)

You can adjust certain tables to learn an adjusted retard range or you can set this table to learn nothing. (not recommended)

These are the safety tables I spoke of and I highly recommend there be no adjustments made to them in your final calibration.

Now for the much harder to understand facet...


Now, with the information that you gathered Kevin.. How does the resistance at the tip of the plug change with higher compression? This is a whole another topic that also has multiple sequences.

You are talking about "Jump the gap resistance".

This is all based on a 'Base Model Driver' within the ECM code calculations/equation. When you change the resistance in the first part (mechanical) with a plug, wire or gap change you are changing the base model driver. It then turns to junk, you have no base to work from.

Now, at this point, you must remember. When the ECM looks for the Ion sensing it is at the end of the cylinder burn. With the J1850 ECM data gathering is gathered at the rate of about 5 FPS. There are huge separations in the data if you think of spark happening then being recorded at 5 FPS. This makes any and all data "History". A CAN will allow data frames at around 25 FPS so there is a lot more available to the ECM feedback yet both work off of the same Base Model.

Cylinder pressure does change the jump the gap resistance for firing the cylinder mixture when under a higher compression. The more compression the harder it is for the ions to jump the gap within the spark in such a small and tightly compacted atmospheric place. This can cause late timing at TDC. There is a small window for ignition and this window at TDC also moves with piston movement such as higher RPM which is also affected by little things like the crank sensor.

Spark, measured in Mega Jewels, looks for a sharp edge to jump to a sharp edge. The older the plug the less sharp edge it has. Mileage on a plug will round these sharp edges. The electrode, which is round but has a clean cut on the top will fire from a clean edge to the ground electrode. The ground electrode is rounded but has a clean cut at the end. So, this is where your spark takes place, sharp edge to sharp edge. With wear on a spark plug the electrode will round itself making it more difficult for the spark to jump.

What also comes into play with jump the gap is fuel mixture. Leaner fuel = harder to fire off. When it does you get this big late BOOM. This BOOM, if happening within the TDC* window, is where the ECM analyzes and the ion sensing can/will create a ghost knock.

Richer the mixture the easier it is to light off but the longer the burn so there is less ghost knock within the window.. Remember, this window moves around in varying degrees with RPM's. This is also the reason why it is important to tune the mixture (VE's and AFR) before doing your timing. When tuning the knock isn't so important unless it is so bad the motor is going to destroy itself. This is also why one must tune the mixture at the lower end of the RPM's first.

Doing a mechanical test on a plug or wire resistance isn't the key. You must start with the base model, stock plugs and wires because this is where the Harley/Delphi model started. When you have tuned the bike and change to an aftermarket plug you move the base model. This move may or may not junk out the base model depending on how hot/cold the plug is and the fuel mixture (rich or lean). If it does and the adaptive learning is turned on the tune will degregate to crap.

The colder the plug the cooler cylinder temps. What you want is to see the white hot heat less on the electrode insulator rather than all the way down. If it is all the way down then the plug is too hot. In older motors this could be easily measured (cylinder temp) but in the new motors it is very difficult to measure on a scale.

Harley also put out a special plug for the 120R motor. Not sure if everyone knows about this but it's true. The plug was created colder with multiple sharp flat edges around the electrode bar. Not sure if it is still available or not.

Another interesting point is spark gap. Let's say you have the plugs set at the factory 40 - 45 gap. There are issues with knock in your final data. Is this ghost knock? Were new HD stock plugs and wired used when tuning? Well, you can actually reduce the gap to 35 and retest. I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut the ghost knock is gone. So what happened? Reduce the gap you change the base model but you also change the jump the gap model as well and this makes the ion sensing hard code easier to detect what knock is real and what is BS.

Man, this is making my head hurt. This is just the layman's way of explaining it. Trust me, there is a lot more to this equation than I can possibly explain and I hope what I have explained can be understood.

[Lizard]

One thing I don't think that has been discussed or addressed.....typically we measure resistance with a low voltage ohmmeter. Your typical Fluke has a 9V battery and no step up transformer, so the resistance is measured with that low voltage/low current source. The coil output is MUCH higher, something like 40kV. The plug wires will react differently (just like you would) to the 40kV, as opposed to the 9V. As they get older, the wires will tend to arc internally, changing resistance (lowering) when the 40kV is applied. They will not necessarily show lower voltage to the smaller output of a DMM.

[msocko3]

Man, this is making my head hurt. This is just the layman's way of explaining it. Trust me, there is a lot more to this equation than I can possibly explain and I hope what I have explained can be understood.

I'll bet your fingers are sore also. I got the gist of it.

[iaff84]

I'll bet your fingers are sore also. I got the gist of it.

Out of my pay grade! but thanks, I am more confused but I will cope.
Glad I do not have to retain all that stuff but love it when I turn on the key and all comes together as I ride down the road.
Dennis

[Mr.Wizard]

Sorry guys.... explaining how the many facets of ion sensing are all related can be as exciting as watching paint peel. It's funny to see how this thread evolved from asking about upgrading to a plug to getting semi technical as to why you shouldn't. Change your plugs every 5k miles when you change your oil. What is the cost in relation to a quart of your favorite oil? Peanuts. Change the plug wires each time you change tranny fluid, 20K.

Now, if we all listened to Jack... we could have all saved a bunch of time and typing.

There ain't anything magic about spark plugs....

As for Lizard... the guy works with electronic measuring devices and travels the country doing so. Tough job but someone has to do it. He may be one of a handful of guys here that can understand the links I pasted.

M3... if you are having difficulties wrapping your head around this, call me. My fingers will thank you.


So... OK... I have a question for all of you. Who was the first racing engineer to work with and develop the porcelain electrode insulator for a spark plug and when did he do this? No, it wasn't Helen Bartlett, she was 30 years later... and stop trying to Google it.

[Lizard]

Was it perhaps in 1902? I googled it ;-)

[Mr.Wizard]

Was it perhaps in 1902? I googled it ;-)

That's one part... now for the second part.

Who was it?

[Lizard]

I got that, I was providing a hint to let someone else answer. He worked for the Auto Car Company, another hint ;-)

[DK Custom Products]

Wiz,

Thank you very much for the info. Got a couple more questions, but have been slammed the last few days...should have some time in a few days.

Also, will post my findings on OEM plug wires and SE plug wires from time at the dealership.

Kevin