need a trike electrician for mechanical problem

[pcombe]

Help me think straight?

I just put a new replacement battery on my trike and a new voltage regulator and I seem to have a direct short. Its almost as if I were hooking the cables up backward although im not.
I soldered my connections.

I can hear a breaker tripping so I assume it's trying not to burn things up. I should be able to hook up the positive battery cable and not get much in the line of sparks when I try to hook up the negative wire. instead it strikes an arc. (IE direct short?)

I get no lights or neutral indicator.

When all this started I was in Laramie with a new battery and after sitting for a few hours it had to be push started. The gage showed it was charging on the way home and the lights worked but wouldn't start when I got into the garage. I still had lights,neutral lights etc. the next day.

Question? could the new regulator be bad causing this short?
what is the likelihood that the contacts were bad to begin with?
And what is the procedure to test it without the bike running?

Could it be the stator although it seemed to be charging on the way home?

I cant start the bike to do electrical tests.

Im going to haul out the motor manual but perhaps you could save me some time?:Shrug:

I'm having one of my bad medical days my meds are confusing me but not to bad and question my thinking, this goes against every thing I think I know?

 

[pcombe]

When I hook an ohm meter between the leads on the regulator wires I get 4.64
resistance and 0.00 on the stator leads out of the engine.:clapping:

 

[Phu Cat]

We're talking about the '89 TG Ultra? Then there's a real easy way to eliminate the stator: Take the clutch cover off and smell the primary atmosphere. If it smells like burnt varnish one of the towers of the stator has shorted out. Or if the atmosphere just smells like good old oil you're probably all right, stator wise.

Zero ohms seems a little low, but I can,t remember for sure. Been too long. Seems like 3-4 ohms, but I wouldn't bet on it. The most important check you can make in that region is from either one of those sockets to the primary case. You want to be sure there is NO! continuity there. But if your primary atmosphere passes the 'smell test' there shouldn't be any continuity at the sockets to the case either so you problem should lie somewhere else. Good luck.

Phu Cat

 

[pcombe]

We're talking about the '89 TG Ultra? Then there's a real easy way to eliminate the stator: Take the clutch cover off and smell the primary atmosphere. If it smells like burnt varnish one of the towers of the stator has shorted out. Or if the atmosphere just smells like good old oil you're probably all right, stator wise.

Zero ohms seems a little low, but I can,t remember for sure. Been too long. Seems like 3-4 ohms, but I wouldn't bet on it. The most important check you can make in that region is from either one of those sockets to the primary case. You want to be sure there is NO! continuity there. But if your primary atmosphere passes the 'smell test' there shouldn't be any continuity at the sockets to the case either so you problem should lie somewhere else. Good luck.

Phu Cat

yes its on my old tour glide. when I hook a lead into either of the STATOR leads and to the primary case the meter is dead and does nothing at all?

if I hook a lead from the REGULATOR to the primary case I get 4.56 ohms


I smell only oil if the olfactory senses are working correctly and the oil level is good.
Perhaps I misinterpreted your ohm test?

 

[Phu Cat]

You're bike still has the plug that you pull out of the left front of the primary, right? If you put one of you meter leads on either of the contacts that the plug you removed normally plugs into, then put you other meters lead on the primary case, you should show no current flow at all. In other words, the needle should not move if you're using an analog type meter. This way the problem is not with the stator.

In regard to getting sparks when you hooked up the negative cable, could you have left the radio on? (Smart connecting the neg. cable last.) As far as the rest of the problems I'm not sure except for the soldering. I learned several years ago from an old fart that crimping connection is better than soldering as the vibration inherent in Harleys will eventually crack a soldered connection.

Phu Cat

 

[pcombe]

You're bike still has the plug that you pull out of the left front of the primary, right? If you put one of you meter leads on either of the contacts that the plug you removed normally plugs into, then put you other meters lead on the primary case, you should show no current flow at all. In other words, the needle should not move if you're using an analog type meter. This way the problem is not with the stator.

In regard to getting sparks when you hooked up the negative cable, could you have left the radio on? (Smart connecting the neg. cable last.) As far as the rest of the problems I'm not sure except for the soldering. I learned several years ago from an old fart that crimping connection is better than soldering as the vibration inherent in Harleys will eventually crack a soldered connection.

Phu Cat

thanks
yes that would be my set up for plugging in.I will process this when im not so tired.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess it would help if I knew how to test a regulator straight out of the box before installing?

"You're bike still has the plug that you pull out of the left front of the primary, right? If you put one of you meter leads on either of the contacts that the plug you removed normally plugs into, then put you other meters lead on the primary case, you should show no current flow at all. In other words, the needle should not move if you're using an analog type meter. This way the problem is not with the stator."

this seems to be the case

 

[DTR 11TG]

is it possible you have a bad battery, new doesn't always mean good or perfect:Shrug:

 

[oneup]

Ok ive never pulled my trikes electrics appart or even had to look at how they work, but.. i think the trike should start and run fine with the rectifier regulator disconected completely from the windings, as long as the battery is charged. then you should be able to measure AC volts out of the windings. my old bike 1990, only has a single winding and can push out about 60volts AC at 4000 rpm. this voltage fluctuates with revs .. you should see ac voltages out of each winding and they should be similar by my logic.
As FXST said.. dont count on new meaning good

 

[Rick Kay]

To test the voltage going into the voltage regulator, take a multimeter and place it in the DC voltage setting. Take the probes of the multimeter and place the positive probe (normally the red probe) on the input pin of the voltage regulator and the negative probe (normally black probe) on the ground pin. The voltage read should be higher than the voltage the regulator is rated to output. This is normally 1-2 volts higher.

To measure the output voltage, place the positive probe of the multimeter on the output pin of the regulator and the negative probe on the ground pin of the regulator. It should read a voltage at or about the rated voltage that the regulator is designed for.

I tried to be clear. Let me know if its like mud...

 

[tom w]

If it ran before and doesn't now some thing you changed is the problem....

 

[pcombe]

If it ran before and doesn't now some thing you changed is the problem....

So I am telling myself!

The bike is 25yrs old and I decided to bite the bullet and put a new main breaker in it before I attack it any further( cheap ins). It's a bugger to get to so as long as I have it down I may as well check wires on the way out?

I normally take it down every winter and check and lubricate connectors the irony is that the problem I have are those I was trying to avoid.:laugh:

I'm going to replace the regulator tomorrow and see where I go from there?
As of right now I still have the short.

I just wasn't feeling well enough to go into it very deep today. :Meds: heart meds are better than yesterday so perhaps tomorrow will be a good one?:Shrug:

 

[Phu Cat]

Pcombe, Just for fun, before you spent big bucks on a new regulator, if you pulled each fuse and wrote down what it was for, then reconnected your battery and began reinstalling your fuses one at a time until you heard a breaker pop, would that give you an idea where the short is?

PC

 

[pcombe]

Pcombe, Just for fun, before you spent big bucks on a new regulator, if you pulled each fuse and wrote down what it was for, then reconnected your battery and began reinstalling your fuses one at a time until you heard a breaker pop, would that give you an idea where the short is?

PC

That's a good idea and thanks for the suggestion, however there are very few fuses in my 89 they are circuit breakers.

When I really get down to the brass tacks I will try disconnecting wiring connectors until the negative wire ceases to arc when held to the battery and then determine where each wire in the connector goes.

The thing I hate most about wiring is having to be so methodical?
A mechanical problem usually rears it's ugly head and says "Paul how would like to drop a few hundred dollars today?":AGGHH:

I have the factory motor manual with complete wiring diagrams so I should be able to keep myself from getting lost, After that it may be as simple (and time consuming, frustrating and irritating) as poking a wire with a circuit tester instead of a multi meter?

:Shrug: Maybe I will get lucky though it's not in my nature to do so and always makes me wonder why I didn't see it to begin with?:Turkey:
:gah:
God grant me the serenity to accept the things that piss me off.
The courage not to twist mine or someone else's head off.
And the guidance to get me through this B.S.

Otherwise perhaps you can give me an excuse to buy another tool?:clapping:

 

[wiredgeorge]

Your stator is three phase... in other words, three sets of wires wound around a magnetic core... the wires are wrapped in plastic stuff and if the plastic melts they short. Take a multimeter and check for continuity between all three legs by placing the meter in Ohms scale on the smallest setting (200?). If you touch two of the wires, you should see a ONE and if it shows more or bops around, the stator needs to be replaced. If it checks out:

The regulator/rectifier takes the AC and makes it into a usable DC current for the bike. There will be THREE wires (for the three AC legs) going from the stator into the reg/rec. The wires on the reg/rec they connect to are the same color. Then there will be either 2 or 3 other wires. If there are two, one will be ground and the other will connect to a T connector with the one lead going to your fuse box and the other to the battery to charge. Make sure you have this correct. I have no idea what wire color to expect for a Harley. The other wire will be a ground. If these are plugged in backwards, it will cause the issues you are having. If there is yet another wire, this wire will be the "sense" wire which is plugged into some switched circuit on your bike and will give the reg/rec a voltage it uses to vary the output as appropriate. Most modern reg/rec units get this "sense" from the voltage supplied to the battery/main fuse box. If you can unplug the reg/rec and start the bike off a charged battery, you can measure the output wire's voltage which should be a tad over 12VDC at idle and a tad over 14VDC at 4K rpm. I don't know Harleys but the former voltage level or rpm may vary a bit but be in this range. You battery needs about 14VDC to maintain a full charge.

Your new battery might also be the culprit I guess. If two cells are shorting, it will blow fuses. Take it an autoparts place and get it load tested. That will tell you if the battery is defective.

 

[Rick Kay]

Your stator is three phase... in other words, three sets of wires wound around a magnetic core..

I have to disagree. Paul's charging system is a two phase.

 

[pcombe]

thank you all very much!


HI FOLKS I BELEIVE I HAVE FOUND AND FIXED THE PROBLEM LATE THIS AFTERNOON AND AM TOO TIRED TO GO INTO IT BUT BY DARN IT WAS THE REGULATOR, BUT NOT WHAT I EXPECTED.

YOUR SUGGESTIONS GOT ME THINKING STRAIGHT AND THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT AT SOME POINT HARLEY CHANGED THE DESIGHN ON HOW THE REGULATOR WORKS AND IT NO LONGER CONNECTS TO THE GOLD POST ON THE MAIN BREAKER, THEY NOW HAVE TO BE ATTACHED TO THE SILVER (AUXILLIARY POST).

I WAS CAUSING A DIRECT SHORT BY HOOKING IT UP THE TRADITIONAL WAY I HAVE BEEN USING ON THIS BIKE FOR THE PAST 25 YRS.

THE THING THAT REALLY DISSCUSTS ME IS THAT THEY DIDN'T ASK MY PERMISSION?

BUT THEN THEY DIDNT ASK ME IF I WANTED TO SEE A NEW ELECTRICAL NIGHTMARE ON TWO WHEELS WITH THE H.D. LOGO EITHER!

DONT THEY UNDERSTAND IT'S ALL ABOUT ME, AND I DETEST ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS?:kpzxvq:

 

[oneup]

im an auto electrician, and an electronics technician, and i hate electrical problems. lucky i invent new things. cos electrical faults can be a MO FO.
wired george sounds like hes had a few dramas in the past cos thats how they roll these days. so yes they have changed the system a few times without your permission Pcombe.
I am currently building a fully remote controlable. as well as driveable explosives truck. so explosives can be layed and charge holes backfilled, on risky slopes. the truck is fitted with inclinometers so it can warn the remote operator when its getting close to tipping.

 

[wiredgeorge]

I am a vintage Japanese bike mechanic and specialize in carburetors. I have never owned nor worked on a Harley (except the carburetors which are Keihin --- Japanese). I find it hard to believe Harleys still use two phase stators bwhahaha; the Japanese only used 2-phase on lower end bikes and quit doing it back in the 80s. Strange. One day, I might buy a Harley; have nothing against them and I do like air cooled engines... guess I will have to hurry to buy an air cooled engine as I think Harley has seen the writing on the wall and will likely be liquid cooled within a few years. With the EPA on the warpath, it will be sooner than later!

 

[pcombe]

im an auto electrician, and an electronics technician, and i hate electrical problems. lucky i invent new things. cos electrical faults can be a MO FO.
wired george sounds like hes had a few dramas in the past cos thats how they roll these days. so yes they have changed the system a few times without your permission Pcombe.
I am currently building a fully remote controlable. as well as driveable explosives truck. so explosives can be layed and charge holes backfilled, on risky slopes. the truck is fitted with inclinometers so it can warn the remote operator when its getting close to tipping.

That would be a cool thing to see, I held an explosives license for many years and blasted big patterns in open pit mines.
I imagine technology has left me behind in that field also.

 

[Phu Cat]

Congrats on getting things figured out on your own Pcombe. Know that was a real wrestling match!

Phu Cat