Quick note about PowerVision tune files from DJ or FuelMoto

[scooterbum46]

Be aware that these maps are pretty good, but not developed on a TG - they're from two wheeled Ultras and Ultra Limiteds.. Difference?

1: Speedo will be off about 5 Mph (on 2011 and later TG's) , the Trike speedo calibration value is 2462, the "improved stock" from the PV is 2233.

2: The length of the exhaust is different, with the extension pipe on the trike. Autotune is your friend here, as the file from DJ/FM is close, but air flow (VE) is definitely affected by pipe length.

Never have seen this mentioned before on threads about using the PV, (including the 692 pages dedicated to the PV across the road)..

 

[msocko3]

Be aware that these maps are pretty good, but not developed on a TG - they're from two wheeled Ultras and Ultra Limiteds.. Difference?

1: Speedo will be off about 5 Mph , the Trike speedo calibration value is 2462, the "improved stock" from the PV is 2233.

2: The length of the exhaust is different, with the extension pipe on the trike. Autotune is your friend here, as the file from DJ/FM is close, but air flow (VE) is definitely affected by pipe length.

Never have seen this mentioned before on threads about using the PV, (including the 692 pages dedicated to the PV across the road)..

Good job on your attention to details, problem is the majority of the people using a tuner are not qualified tuners, their DIY types. They buy a product with intentions that it will be pretty close with only a few or no adjustments to be made. As you discovered, the 2011 and later Triglide is geared different than all the Touring bikes. The gearing difference equals about a 5 mph faster discrepancy in the speedometer reading, the problem is it isn't linear with some seeing upwards of 10 mph faster indicated speeds. My guess is the speedometer error is also the reason some are getting some pretty impressive fuel mileage numbers, after all when your speedometer is reading 70 mph and your only going 60 - 65 mph, your odometer will show more miles traveled than actual.

Good observation on the canned map, they're kind of close most of the time, and at times way off in left field.

I've had to help fix some canned maps which were way off, either lean, rich, or just plain bad actors wanting to start hard, ping and decel pop and sound like a machine gun being fired when you let of the throttle.

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

Be aware that these maps are pretty good, but not developed on a TG - they're from two wheeled Ultras and Ultra Limiteds.. Difference?

1: Speedo will be off about 5 Mph (on 2011 and later TG's) , the Trike speedo calibration value is 2462, the "improved stock" from the PV is 2233.

2: The length of the exhaust is different, with the extension pipe on the trike. Autotune is your friend here, as the file from DJ/FM is close, but air flow (VE) is definitely affected by pipe length.

Never have seen this mentioned before on threads about using the PV, (including the 692 pages dedicated to the PV across the road)..

My speedo is within 1 mph of gps ... and the odometer is 0.3 miles on 10 miles higher (based on measured miles). I did the basic auto tune thing and my speedo is still within 1 mph of gps and 0.3 miles on 10 miles higher. I did start my auto tuning with the stage 1 down load from Harley ... so I guess that's why it didn't change.

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

Good job on your attention to details, problem is the majority of the people using a tuner are not qualified tuners, their DIY types. They buy a product with intentions that it will be pretty close with only a few or no adjustments to be made.

Which is exactly why we buy them ... rather than have some "qualified tuner" ruin my bike. I had an 07 Ultra dyno'd by a "qualified PROFESSIONAL tuner" and by the time I got home (125 miles), my brand new screaming eagle mufflers where orange (tru duals) ... bike ran so hot, if left that way I have no doubt the I'd of done serious damage to the bike ... called "tuner" and he said and I quote, "Your bike is tuned perfectly, you must have a different issue." After doing many hours on the phone, I found a tuner that appeared to know what he was doing (I wasn't sure about tuning but he at least listened to what I wanted out of the bike). Took my bike to him and he looked at the readings in the tune I had and told me the bike was set up with an air to fuel ratio of 18.4:1 ... he also told me that year stock Harley Ultra's were about 17.3-17.5:1 to meet epa.

After he retuned it, no other work done other than installing a new set of screaming eagles identical to the others, it was the best running Harley I've ever owned ... I could ride all day long at 100* air temp in shorts an never feel heat on my legs.

Cost me $300 for the bad tune, $400 for the next set of screaming eagles, plus mileage to get there and back for the bad tune ... not to mention my time and frustration. The sad part is the first tuner came "Highly Recommended".

When I bought the trike, I immediately called the tuner that did that Ultra .. He doesn't have a dyno that will do trikes ... he recommended that I get the power vision and do the auto tune thing. He said that's what they do for trikes and the do "look" at the readings in winpv and tweak a little. He also said for 95% of the bikes out there, basic auto tune will provide a really good tune.

As for mpg numbers ... mine may be off due to above mentioned speedo/odometer errors, but prior to tuning with the pv, and the same errors, I was getting 24.5-25.0 mpg @ 80 mph. Now consistently I get 35.2-36mpg @ 80 mph. I've also put the rotopax 2gal in the trunk and done the same ride (105 miles) I did when I got 24.5 and did it both ways (210 miles) on one tank without running out.

The first time I had less than 1/4 tank left after 1 leg.

Okay ... so what does that mean? I'm getting plenty of mpg's to survive here in western Colorado and eastern Utah. The trike has way more pep and is running way cooler (as per power vision readings, taken from trikes ecm, the engine temp read at the rear cylinder is hanging out at 195-210* and coolant temp is rock solid at about 185*.

Bottom Line tuner and tune run cost anywhere from $800-$1200 out here if you can find one that dynos trikes, power vision $500 (and it's mine to keep and I can use it someday on another bike by upgrading the license for $200)... we can cast dispersions about not qualified tuner using the pv, but you don't need to be one to get great results. Just my $0.02 and my humble opinion take it for what it's worth.

 

[riden2low]

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[msocko3]

Which is exactly why we buy them ... rather than have some "qualified tuner" ruin my bike. I had an 07 Ultra dyno'd by a "qualified PROFESSIONAL tuner" and by the time I got home (125 miles), my brand new screaming eagle mufflers where orange (tru duals) ... bike ran so hot, if left that way I have no doubt the I'd of done serious damage to the bike ... called "tuner" and he said and I quote, "Your bike is tuned perfectly, you must have a different issue." After doing many hours on the phone, I found a tuner that appeared to know what he was doing (I wasn't sure about tuning but he at least listened to what I wanted out of the bike). Took my bike to him and he looked at the readings in the tune I had and told me the bike was set up with an air to fuel ratio of 18.4:1 ... he also told me that year stock Harley Ultra's were about 17.3-17.5:1 to meet epa. After he retuned it, no other work done other than installing a new set of screaming eagles identical to the others, it was the best running Harley I've ever owned ... I could ride all day long at 100* air temp in shorts an never feel heat on my legs. Cost me $300 for the bad tune, $400 for the next set of screaming eagles, plus mileage to get there and back for the bad tune ...

not to mention my time and frustration. The sad part is the first tuner came "Highly Recommended".

When I bought the trike, I immediately called the tuner that did that Ultra .. He doesn't have a dyno that will do trikes ... he recommended that I get the power vision and do the auto tune thing. He said that's what they do for trikes and the do "look" at the readings in winpv and tweak a little. He also said for 95% of the bikes out there, basic auto tune will provide a really good tune.

As for mpg numbers ... mine may be off due to above mentioned speedo/odometer errors, but prior to tuning with the pv, and the same errors, I was getting 24.5-25.0 mpg @ 80 mph. Now consistently I get 35.2-36mpg @ 80 mph. I've also put the rotopax 2gal in the trunk and done the same ride (105 miles) I did when I got 24.5 and did it both ways (210 miles) on one tank without running out. The first time I had less than 1/4 tank left after 1 leg.

Okay ...

so what does that mean? I'm getting plenty of mpg's to survive here in western Colorado and eastern Utah. The trike has way more pep and is running way cooler (as per power vision readings, taken from trikes ecm, the engine temp read at the rear cylinder is hanging out at 195-210* and coolant temp is rock solid at about 185*.

Bottom Line tuner and tune run cost anywhere from $800-$1200 out here if you can find one that dynos trikes, power vision $500 (and it's mine to keep and I can use it someday on another bike by upgrading the license for $200)... we can cast dispersions about not qualified tuner using the pv, but you don't need to be one to get great results. Just my $0.02 and my humble opinion take it for what it's worth.

I think we've all run into that tuner who didn't live up to their local hype. I had one of those years ago, that guy could screw a pooch 7 ways from Sunday. One thing he was good at was making them run hot and ping. When I built the 120 for my 06 I hauled it almost 500 miles one way for a tune by a guy who could do it right, I got a pretty good tune.

You've gotten some pretty good results, you've also been careful enough not to stray into some of the other settings which can get you into trouble if you don't know what to do with them. FWIW the PV is an easy to use tuner since it comes with its own display which is one of the pluses of this particular tuner, even the SEPST and TTS can give you a good tune using their flight recorder feature.

Curious, where are you shooting your rear head temp with the IR gun at?

You getting it at the base of the spark plug?

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

Curious, where are you shooting your rear head temp with the IR gun at? You getting it at the base of the spark plug?

I'm not ... the power vision can read the engine temp and coolant temp and display it real time ... only reason I mounted it. I've been told the engine temp reading comes off the sensor on the rear cylinder, not sure where but I do know it comes from the ecm.

 

[msocko3]

I'm not ... the power vision can read the engine temp and coolant temp and display it real time ... only reason I mounted it. I've been told the engine temp reading comes off the sensor on the rear cylinder, not sure where but I do know it comes from the ecm.

Its coming off the front cylinder, the sensor is located on the left side just behind the horn, under a rubber boot. This is what it looks like when removed.



Where the majority of the tuners check temp is at the base of the spark plug, you will be surprised at the difference in temp between front and rear. A good tune will normally come in around 300 degrees in this area, the rear will normally run 40 degrees warmer. You can get them a little cooler with lowers removed, except its not an option on the liquid cooled Twin cam.

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

Okay ... Apparently I was told wrong about where the reading comes from ... Thanks for the fix ... The only reason I'm keeping the PV mounted is to do a couple or maybe just one more auto tune run when it gets hot. I did look at the speedo number ... It's set at 2462 which I guess is why the speedo is so close ... Actually the closest speedo on any Harley I've ever owned.

I am hesitant to ask this because some unscrupulous person might actually do it. But here goes, if said unscrupulous person was to say make the speedo number say 1231 ... I'm guessing that would make the odometer read .5 miles for evey mile ... Or over a 30k ownership, he could show only 15k ...

Not sure this is linear but you get the idea. Said unscrupulous person could use gps as a speedo and odom and just cheat whoever bought it. Guess there is a little figurative larceny in me, probably we all have those kind of thoughts ... Anyway ... Probably gonna take the PV down soon ... I tend to '"play" with it when riding and get distracted.

Thanks again for the info about the temp sensor.

 

[Gorilla]

the answer is yes about making the speedo/odometer read in correctly. How much before or even if it affects the cruise or 6th gear light I do not know.

 

[rap47]

Just my 2 cents.....My 2011 has a PC-5 with a canned map from Fuel Moto and has been installed for the last three years. Our city sets up radar on different streets through the summer, so you can check your speed. My Tri Glide is always right on the money when checked with the radar. I have not touched a thing since this was installed along with Jackpot mufflers and SE air cleaner. Ya, I am sure it could be fined tuned better, but thing runs like a top and so far not one problem. I have ridden this thing from 850 ft above sea level to over 10,000 ft above sea level and it never missed a beat. NO dis collared pipes and no pinging ever. So for me I can say that I am totally satisfied with my canned map.

 

[msocko3]

Okay ... Apparently I was told wrong about where the reading comes from ... Thanks for the fix ... The only reason I'm keeping the PV mounted is to do a couple or maybe just one more auto tune run when it gets hot. I did look at the speedo number ... It's set at 2462 which I guess is why the speedo is so close ... Actually the closest speedo on any Harley I've ever owned.

I am hesitant to ask this because some unscrupulous person might actually do it. But here goes, if said unscrupulous person was to say make the speedo number say 1231 ... I'm guessing that would make the odometer read .5 miles for evey mile ... Or over a 30k ownership, he could show only 15k ...

Not sure this is linear but you get the idea. Said unscrupulous person could use gps as a speedo and odom and just cheat whoever bought it. Guess there is a little figurative larceny in me, probably we all have those kind of thoughts ... Anyway ... Probably gonna take the PV down soon ... I tend to '"play" with it when riding and get distracted.

Thanks again for the info about the temp sensor.

I'm sure someone out there is doing just what you thought, the speed didn't appear linear when I checked a wrong speedometer correction number when switching the 2010 Triglide I had and my dads 09 to the 30 tooth sprocket. From some folks observations there is an error of 5 - 10 mph when the correction number is set to one for a 32 tooth transmission sprocket vs the number for the 30 tooth.

 

[Keystone]

After making the switch on my 2009 from 32 tooth to 30 tooth my Speedometer was off quite a bit. I had to do 78 mph on the speedo to be doing 70 on the GPS.

 

[delta]

From memory:

To get your speedo in sync with the gps try this:

1. speed shown on speedometer / speed on gps = number

2. number X pulses per km = new value

example

1. speedo reads 60
2. gps reads 64
3. 60 / 64 = 0.9375
number = 0.9375

4. current pulses per km = 2300
5. 2300 * 0.9375 = 2156
2156 is the new value to enter in the Speedo Calibration

If this doesn't work, do gps / speedo

Been a while since I did this, but it worked.

 

[scooterbum46]

Just my 2 cents.....My 2011 has a PC-5 with a canned map from Fuel Moto and has been installed for the last three years. Our city sets up radar on different streets through the summer, so you can check your speed. My Tri Glide is always right on the money when checked with the radar. I have not touched a thing since this was installed along with Jackpot mufflers and SE air cleaner. Ya, I am sure it could be fined tuned better, but thing runs like a top and so far not one problem. I have ridden this thing from 850 ft above sea level to over 10,000 ft above sea level and it never missed a beat. NO dis collared pipes and no pinging ever. So for me I can say that I am totally satisfied with my canned map.

As the thread title states, this refers to the PowerVision maps, not the Power Commander, which is an entirely different tuner. Note this wasn't trying to slam DJ or FuelMoto (my vendor of choice), just giving a heads up. If FuelMoto had a trike dyno, I'm sure Jamie would be putting up maps specific to the TriGlides..

 

[Mr.Wizard]

The speedometer setting numbers are held in the ECM, not the calibration. It is that way in every tuner I've used including the original PV's. Did they change this with the new versions on the PV and I just didn't notice? If so, it is the only tuner that does this change.

There is very little difference in the trike and a touring bike calibration. Each calibration will need to be adjusted or "tuned" to the volumetric efficiencies and EGR of the host bike. Yes, you can just flash the host bike and it should run better than the OEM calibration but until it is adjusted to the way the host bike breathes it (the tune) will be incomplete.

It is this way for all bikes and all tuners.

EDIT: I was able to research did verify the PV does it a bit different. As stated above, the speedo calibration is held inside the calibration itself and it must be checked/changed to fit your bike requirements before you flash using the PV. However... the ECM does hold the number for the speedo until changed by a tuning device. The PV doesn't give you a chance to change the speedo number while flashing.

You must do that before flashing.

The OP is dead on

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

I decided that the tiny error I was seeing in speedo/odomerter was unsat, so ... I started play with the speedo numbers ... I wasn't sure whether I needed to add or remove pulses to correct it. What I did last night was to start with 2462 what was on my original tune, and create copies of the map with +12 and -12 or 2474 and 2450 ... then -24 and +24 or 2438 and 2486. What this did was to allow me to reflash on the highway (pull off an exit, go on the overpass, reflash and head the other direction). Probably can't do that back east ... get run over.

Here I loaded one ... ran for about 30-40 miles checking speedo against gps and odometer against mile markers. I know ...

this is probably the long way around the block as my dad would say ... bottom line .. I used to have a 0.3 mile error in 10 miles ... the 2450 map was the closest, but the 2438 was too low ... with the 2450 map my error is now 0.2 miles on 40 miles. Pretty close .. less than a mile on 100. Maybe I'm anal, but tomorrow I'm doing the same thing but with maps at -2, -4, -6, -8, -10 ... I'm guessing -4 will be perfect, but we'll see. Gives me an excuse to ride ...

not like I needed one.

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

Did some speedo adjustment today ... seems for my tri ... 2452 is pretty darn close .. over a 50 mile (mile markers) ride the odometer showed 50.0 miles ... I think I can call it good ... the speedo is dead nuts to the gps ... although one of them seems to lag (guessing gps) ... but steady state the are very close ... I checked them at 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80 mph (70 and 80 where a real pain ... 40 mph winds today) ...

I think I can quit obsessing now ... LOL ... amazing how the little things bother me.

I did 135 miles at various speeds to check ... in lots o wind ... bike got 34.8 mpg .. I'm happy.

 

[plumberdoug]

Due to weather , pot holes and lots of shale on road , I only got 250 miles on bike. Going to Myrtle Beach in May and would like to have power vision set up. Not sure if I should change things with only that amount of miles !

 

[scooterbum46]

Due to weather , pot holes and lots of shale on road , I only got 250 miles on bike. Going to Myrtle Beach in May and would like to have power vision set up. Not sure if I should change things with only that amount of miles !

If you've made no mods to bike, and shaken it down pretty well, there's no harm in putting the PV on the bike and either:

A: Just monitoring the engine parameters with the Gauge feature.

B: Loading the "Improved Stock" map, again using the Gauge feature.

I know that you can roll a brand new bike out the door of your dealer with Stage 1,2,3 or 4 mods with zero miles and "ride it like ya stole it" , but I'm a little more conservative and want to make sure that all those rubbing , electroning and rotating parts are getting along for a while first - I wait until the 1K service to start mods that might involve future warranty disputes. I just rolled 2K on the TG, waiting until I migrate back North before putting in my order to FuelMoto. Of course the above is JMHO and YMMV yadda yadda yadda...

My standard gauge setup usually include engine and head temp (front cyl only), front and rear knock counter, ambient air and intake air..