A Couple of days with a Milwaukee-Eight Freewheeler...

[DK Custom Products]

I believe everything you say about the warranties in the USA but here in Canada where I live (Okanogan valley Vernon) and all the discussions I have had with dealers in BC and Alberta I will have to stay with the things that will cool my bike off without taking a chance of voiding my warranty.
So far I have the DK tank lift, The Dk wind deflectors, the DK extended floor boards, The FL-xieds-10 from DK, the second oil cooler (jagg 10 row vertical in line with the original (Jagg cooler and xieds can be removed in minutes by the side of the road in case of breakdown) I am also going to install either the mighty mites or the cool masters from love jugs but I am waiting for the tests you posted you were going to do soon on them. I hope these things will cool my motor off enough to keep it running for a long time

Sounds like a good plan. For my own curiosity...if you can get a copy of the written warranty that Harley gives in Canada...I would really like to see it.

Kevin

[DK Custom Products]

I've started a new thread where I'll be posting 15 or so charts, and some other observations.The M8 is an impressive power-plant, if it holds up well to time and miles, it is a giant step forward for HD.As of today, there is just one chart posted up...more will be coming over the next week or so.

http://www.triketalk.com/forum/threa...ilwaukee-Eight


Kevin

[Fozworth]

I've started a new thread where I'll be posting 15 or so charts, and some other observations.The M8 is an impressive power-plant, if it holds up well to time and miles, it is a giant step forward for HD.As of today, there is just one chart posted up...more will be coming over the next week or so.

http://www.triketalk.com/forum/threads/37797-Dyno-Charts-amp-other-interesting-info-on-the-Milwaukee-Eight




Kevin

I found the Harley Tri-Glide after watching one of your videos. You and your wife are living the Trike travel life I want for myself and my wife.

Then, it's your advise that got me through some heat issues.

Now, I looking for you to say it's safe to buy the M8. Once I get your permission to get the M8.....it's a done deal.

I don't know if you intended on becoming a Tri-Glide coach, counselor and mentor or not but in all seriousness, I hang on every word you say.

[Capt.Bob]

Fozworth, Like yourself, I carefully listen to what Kevin has to say because he really does his homework on these HD trikes. I had a 2016 TC103 Tri Glide Ultra and traded it a couple of months ago for a 2017 M8 Tri Glide Ultra. This particular trike had the early July/August 2016 build date and the engine self-destructed in the first 15 miles due to a reported bad oil pump. It is possible that this was one of the M8's that had not had the journals properly cleaned of machined shavings during the build process. In any event, Harley wanted the original engine sent back and sent the dealer a new engine to install. I came on the scene about a week after the trike had been put back into service and bought it from the selling dealer for a terrific price. I since have put about 1700 miles on the trike in the past two months and it is running like a scalded cat. The only thing I added recently was a set of Cool-Master fans from Love Jugs to keep this $6k lump nice and cool.

Based on Kevin's findings, the TC103 engines tend to run lean and hot and after accumulating some miles, they tend to suffer the after-effects of chronic heat with potential ovaling of the cylinders and and/or an inability to pass leak down specs. Given the known history of the TC103's from I guess 2007-2016, my thinking was that the M8 would likely have ironed out some of these problems. I think Kevin's recent findings of the FW M8 engines not running lean gives me some confidence that the MOCO may have addressed some of these issues in the M8.

Additionally, I took out a 3-year HD ESP to cover any unexpected problems for the next 5 years. The M8 runs cooler, makes power down lower and is significantly more quiet in terms of engine noise. I really liked my 2016 TC103 and put about 15k miles on it but I have to say, I REALLY, REALLY love the new M8-engined TGU in comparison to my 2016. I don't think Kevin or any of us are going to know the long-term performance of these engines for several more years. Soooo, if you ride one of the 2017's and like it, my take on it is to just go for it and get a good trade right now while the jury is still out and some are sitting on the fence or still looking to purchase 2016's which will help your trade-in value.

[Fozworth]

Fozworth, Like yourself, I carefully listen to what Kevin has to say because he really does his homework on these HD trikes. I had a 2016 TC103 Tri Glide Ultra and traded it a couple of months ago for a 2017 M8 Tri Glide Ultra. This particular trike had the early July/August 2016 build date and the engine self-destructed in the first 15 miles due to a reported bad oil pump. It is possible that this was one of the M8's that had not had the journals properly cleaned of machined shavings during the build process. In any event, Harley wanted the original engine sent back and sent the dealer a new engine to install. I came on the scene about a week after the trike had been put back into service and bought it from the selling dealer for a terrific price. I since have put about 1700 miles on the trike in the past two months and it is running like a scalded cat. The only thing I added recently was a set of Cool-Master fans from Love Jugs to keep this $6k lump nice and cool.

Based on Kevin's findings, the TC103 engines tend to run lean and hot and after accumulating some miles, they tend to suffer the after-effects of chronic heat with potential ovaling of the cylinders and and/or an inability to pass leak down specs. Given the known history of the TC103's from I guess 2007-2016, my thinking was that the M8 would likely have ironed out some of these problems. I think Kevin's recent findings of the FW M8 engines not running lean gives me some confidence that the MOCO may have addressed some of these issues in the M8.

Additionally, I took out a 3-year HD ESP to cover any unexpected problems for the next 5 years. The M8 runs cooler, makes power down lower and is significantly more quiet in terms of engine noise. I really liked my 2016 TC103 and put about 15k miles on it but I have to say, I REALLY, REALLY love the new M8-engined TGU in comparison to my 2016. I don't think Kevin or any of us are going to know the long-term performance of these engines for several more years. Soooo, if you ride one of the 2017's and like it, my take on it is to just go for it and get a good trade right now while the jury is still out and some are sitting on the fence or still looking to purchase 2016's which will help your trade-in value.

Thank you very much for your post!! You've helped take some of the fear of the unknown away in my decision process!

Thanks again Capt. Bob,

Brian

[DK Custom Products]

I found the Harley Tri-Glide after watching one of your videos. You and your wife are living the Trike travel life I want for myself and my wife.

Then, it's your advise that got me through some heat issues.

Now, I looking for you to say it's safe to buy the M8. Once I get your permission to get the M8.....it's a done deal.

I don't know if you intended on becoming a Tri-Glide coach, counselor and mentor or not but in all seriousness, I hang on every word you say.

Hey Brian,

"Trike Travel Life"....I like that! We have no big trips planned this year so far....but our schedule may free up later in the year for a "mid-size" trip...I hope!

I am personally very enamored with the M8.....BUT, I do not have enough data to know it the way I know the Twin Cams and the Evolution engines.

There has simply not been enough time for folks to put a lot of hard miles to know what 50k, 75k or 100k miles will look like as far a reliability, rebuilding, repair, etc.

I can share the following:

If I were not in the business, I would get an M8, along with an extended warranty, and take my chances. (that does not mean I am recommending, or not recommending for you to do so)

Because I am in the business, I am planning on getting an M8 later this year, after the '18's come out....I will still get an extended warranty on it.

Our preliminary look is that the M8 definitely has less felt heat, BUT, probably still has heat issues that will negatively impact the engine...only time will tell on that.

The reason I have heat concerns on the M8 is that the one we tested was easily getting CHT's of 300* in very easy riding on a cool day. When we were on the dyno, it acted the same way the Twin Cam does...when CHT passes 250* power starts dropping off. There will be more info on what we observed about heat in our report linked below.

We are in the process of putting together a full preliminary report on the one M8 that we spent some serious time with. It will probably be complete by the end of the week. It can be seen in this thread-

http://www.triketalk.com/forum/threa...ilwaukee-Eight


Kevin

[Jack Klarich]

And I will be reading every word

[Capt.Bob]

Hey Brian,

"Trike Travel Life"....I like that! We have no big trips planned this year so far....but our schedule may free up later in the year for a "mid-size" trip...I hope!

I am personally very enamored with the M8.....BUT, I do not have enough data to know it the way I know the Twin Cams and the Evolution engines.

There has simply not been enough time for folks to put a lot of hard miles to know what 50k, 75k or 100k miles will look like as far a reliability, rebuilding, repair, etc.

I can share the following:

If I were not in the business, I would get an M8, along with an extended warranty, and take my chances. (that does not mean I am recommending, or not recommending for you to do so)

Because I am in the business, I am planning on getting an M8 later this year, after the '18's come out....I will still get an extended warranty on it.

Our preliminary look is that the M8 definitely has less felt heat, BUT, probably still has heat issues that will negatively impact the engine...only time will tell on that.

The reason I have heat concerns on the M8 is that the one we tested was easily getting CHT's of 300* in very easy riding on a cool day. When we were on the dyno, it acted the same way the Twin Cam does...when CHT passes 250* power starts dropping off. There will be more info on what we observed about heat in our report linked below.

We are in the process of putting together a full preliminary report on the one M8 that we spent some serious time with. It will probably be complete by the end of the week. It can be seen in this thread-

http://www.triketalk.com/forum/threa...ilwaukee-Eight


Kevin

Kevin, Intuitively, I guessed the right answer when I ordered my new Cool-Master fans from Love Jugs. Reportedly, the Cool-Master fans are the most effective fans they have ever made and I am glad after reading your report that I installed them on my 2017 M8-engined Tri Glide at 1500 miles to mitigate any potential harm from extreme heat cycles and installed them before running my trike in the very warm/hot/muggy Florida temps we experience. I also plan to take a 6,000 mile trip out West in April/May and likely will encounter some hot conditions that the Love Jug fans will help mitigate. Thanks for continuing to share your very detailed experiences. Bob

[DK Custom Products]

And I will be reading every word

Hey Jack...just posted up 5 more charts! Thank you bud! Really enjoyed our time, and appreciate you letting us test your M8!

Kevin

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin, Intuitively, I guessed the right answer when I ordered my new Cool-Master fans from Love Jugs. Reportedly, the Cool-Master fans are the most effective fans they have ever made and I am glad after reading your report that I installed them on my 2017 M8-engined Tri Glide at 1500 miles to mitigate any potential harm from extreme heat cycles and installed them before running my trike in the very warm/hot/muggy Florida temps we experience. I also plan to take a 6,000 mile trip out West in April/May and likely will encounter some hot conditions that the Love Jug fans will help mitigate. Thanks for continuing to share your very detailed experiences. Bob

Yeah, it is hard to fathom how the M8 will fair any differently than the Twin Cams heat wise. If the power was not dropping off, then that would be an indicator that somehow something was different and the metal could take the heat, but that was not the case. Power was dropping off almost identical to the Twin Cams. Time will tell.


Kevin

[Capt.Bob]

Yeah, it is hard to fathom how the M8 will fair any differently than the Twin Cams heat wise. If the power was not dropping off, then that would be an indicator that somehow something was different and the metal could take the heat, but that was not the case. Power was dropping off almost identical to the Twin Cams. Time will tell.


Kevin

Given that Harley increased the cubes and essentially used the same cooling strategies for the Twin-Cooled M8, it stands to reason that the M8 cylinders are going to be subjected to pretty harsh conditions in stock form. That is why I opted for the larger Cool-Master fans than the smaller Mighty Mites that Love Jugs is coming out with. You experienced ovaled cylinders on a TC103 with the Ward fans operating and I wanted to make sure that I could get as much cool air to the jugs as possible. I don't ride in parades but run the trike hard when going across the country and 8-10 hour riding days is not all that unusual for my tastes.

[DK Custom Products]

Given that Harley increased the cubes and essentially used the same cooling strategies for the Twin-Cooled M8, it stands to reason that the M8 cylinders are going to be subjected to pretty harsh conditions in stock form. That is why I opted for the larger Cool-Master fans than the smaller Mighty Mites that Love Jugs is coming out with. You experienced ovaled cylinders on a TC103 with the Ward fans operating and I wanted to make sure that I could get as much cool air to the jugs as possible. I don't ride in parades but run the trike hard when going across the country and 8-10 hour riding days is not all that unusual for my tastes.

Just saw this, but heading out the door...late for an appointment...but wanted to correct some info.

The self destruct of the Twin Cam (ovaled out cylinders & more) was BEFORE I had the Wards Parts Werks fans.

Kevin

[Capt.Bob]

Just saw this, but heading out the door...late for an appointment...but wanted to correct some info.

The self destruct of the Twin Cam (ovaled out cylinders & more) was BEFORE I had the Wards Parts Werks fans.

Kevin

Kevin, Very important distinction, thank you! You must have had the difficulties with your previous Tri Glide because you had mentioned that you had owned the Wards fans across two bikes. Based on your report, the only reason I can see for not getting the Mighty Mites might be the rpm of the fans (13,500 vs. 8500) since Dave Sandel, the invenstor, suggested that the cooling efficiency was within 1% of the new Cool-Master fans. However, there was one post where the reporter stated that Dave had recommended the Cool-Master fans for maximum cooling and that aspect of maximum cooling drove my decision making to get those particular fans. That, and I am noise sensitive and didn't want to drown out the reduced mechanical sounds of my new M8 engine with auxiliary fan noise. Oddly, where the original Love Jugs were not appealing to my aesthetic tastes, the new Cool-Master fans seems to be quite complimentary to the look of the M8 engine. Funny how I now think that the Mighty Mites and/or Werks fans look a bit smallish now. Go figure.

[rhino 2]

Back in my drag racing days [63 to 69] on hot days i would use a cool can on my cars, And that would cut 2/10 of a second off my ET's, I realize that would be in-practal on a Trike/Bike..But cold fuel is free horsepower...Something to think about....

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin, Very important distinction, thank you! You must have had the difficulties with your previous Tri Glide because you had mentioned that you had owned the Wards fans across two bikes. Based on your report, the only reason I can see for not getting the Mighty Mites might be the rpm of the fans (13,500 vs. 8500) since Dave Sandel, the invenstor, suggested that the cooling efficiency was within 1% of the new Cool-Master fans. However, there was one post where the reporter stated that Dave had recommended the Cool-Master fans for maximum cooling and that aspect of maximum cooling drove my decision making to get those particular fans. That, and I am noise sensitive and didn't want to drown out the reduced mechanical sounds of my new M8 engine with auxiliary fan noise. Oddly, where the original Love Jugs were not appealing to my aesthetic tastes, the new Cool-Master fans seems to be quite complimentary to the look of the M8 engine. Funny how I now think that the Mighty Mites and/or Werks fans look a bit smallish now. Go figure.

Yeah, my '11 top end self destructed, and was replaced under warranty, after riding it stock. Once replaced, that is when I started figuring out ways to cool it down. One of the things I did was get some Wards Parts Werks fans.

I am still hoping to get my hands on some cool masters and mighty mites in order to do some testing on them.

Back in my drag racing days [63 to 69] on hot days i would use a cool can on my cars, And that would cut 2/10 of a second off my ET's, I realize that would be in-practal on a Trike/Bike..But cold fuel is free horsepower...Something to think about....

Yep, anything to cool down the intake charge will give more power.

Kevin

[Capt.Bob]

Kevin, I wish I was not so paranoid about my warranty given that the M8 in the Tri Glide actually runs slower at top end than my 2016 TC103 did due to how the two engines make power. For the braver folks that get some direction from folks like yourself and get a decent tune, I think the M8 has the potential to be a screamer. Thankfully, I have a super-fast race car that will allow me all the speed kicks I need but am a bit surprised on how fast the M8 TGU runs out of steam. Downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option because of the torque/power curves you have shown of the engine. I remember last year out West, high up in the mountains, having to downshift my TC103 TGU to maintain speed going up some very steep mountains with 80mph posted speed limits.

[Jack Klarich]

Kevin, I wish I was not so paranoid about my warranty given that the M8 in the Tri Glide actually runs slower at top end than my 2016 TC103 did due to how the two engines make power. For the braver folks that get some direction from folks like yourself and get a decent tune, I think the M8 has the potential to be a screamer. Thankfully, I have a super-fast race car that will allow me all the speed kicks I need but am a bit surprised on how fast the M8 TGU runs out of steam. Downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option because of the torque/power curves you have shown of the engine. I remember last year out West, high up in the mountains, having to downshift my TC103 TGU to maintain speed going up some very steep mountains with 80mph posted speed limits.

I SAY, stop worrying about things, ride it get an extended warranty IMO BEST MONEY SPENT

[Capt.Bob]

I SAY, stop worrying about things, ride it get an extended warranty IMO BEST MONEY SPENT

Jack, I am with you on your sentiments. However, since I got a MOCO ESP, the mods you got would be a non-starter. It is fully detailed in the contract and I personally don't have deep pockets to challenge them on the Magnuson Act . However, that being said, there are many aftermarket insurance programs that would cover mods and the dealership that I bought my trike from also uses those folks when someone wants to mod the heck out of their bike/trike.

[Fozworth]

Kevin, I wish I was not so paranoid about my warranty given that the M8 in the Tri Glide actually runs slower at top end than my 2016 TC103 did due to how the two engines make power. For the braver folks that get some direction from folks like yourself and get a decent tune, I think the M8 has the potential to be a screamer. Thankfully, I have a super-fast race car that will allow me all the speed kicks I need but am a bit surprised on how fast the M8 TGU runs out of steam. Downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option because of the torque/power curves you have shown of the engine. I remember last year out West, high up in the mountains, having to downshift my TC103 TGU to maintain speed going up some very steep mountains with 80mph posted speed limits.

Capt. Bob,

I almost agreed on a purchase of the 2017 TGU tonight over the phone. But I decided to wait a while to get some money transferred.

I'm nervous to see you're feeling like it's under powered. It's "running out of steam" and "downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option". I don't get it? Is the M8 lame?

Also I was told the rear shocks are changed out from the air shocks to better shocks that are mechanically adjustable. Is that true on your M8?

They want around $9500.00 trade for my '16. If I make the trade and it's still a hot ride for me and my passenger and does not have any more power than what I have now, I'm going to be ripped off.

What do you think? I need you and Kevin to make this decision for me! lol

Oh and I almost forgot, did yours come standard with a fan powered oil cooler? And why did you choose to not use the HD cooling fan?

Thanks,

Brian

[Capt.Bob]

Capt. Bob,

I almost agreed on a purchase of the 2017 TGU tonight over the phone. But I decided to wait a while to get some money transferred.

I'm nervous to see you're feeling like it's under powered. It's "running out of steam" and "downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option". I don't get it? Is the M8 lame?

Also I was told the rear shocks are changed out from the air shocks to better shocks that are mechanically adjustable. Is that true on your M8?

They want around $9500.00 trade for my '16. If I make the trade and it's still a hot ride for me and my passenger and does not have any more power than what I have now, I'm going to be ripped off.

What do you think? I need you and Kevin to make this decision for me! lol

Oh and I almost forgot, did yours come standard with a fan powered oil cooler? And why did you choose to not use the HD cooling fan?

Thanks,

Brian

Brian, If you think me or Kevin is going to make your decision for you involving almost $10K, you are dreaming The M8 makes its power at a lower and somewhat wider rpm band and therefore to me and the seat of my pants, makes power where it is generally most useful and more fun. Not being able to exceed 100mph on a trike should not really be a big deal. One would wonder why any rational person would get a heavy trike just to go at or over a ton?

Twin-cooled TC103 and M8 Tri Glides don't come with oil coolers. The HD "cooling fan" is a device that reportedly was designed to take away heat from the passenger and I have been hearing that they are not all that effective for the task.

The felt heat on the M8-powered TGU is significantly less here in my hot Florida climes than the 2016 TC103 I had. However, since HD moved the Cat back on the pipe, I suspect that the felt heat may be a bit more for the rear passenger? I have not ridden my bride on my 2017 yet so do not know what she would think about the differences in felt heat for the passenger.

These bikes whether it be the TC103 or the new M8 run pretty hot and the Love Jugs Cool-Master fans really seem to be taming the operating temps which to me is critical in maintaining long-term viability of the engine and its continued level of factory-delivered performance.

Because of the way the TC103 makes power, out West I was having to downshift to 5th to maintain momentum on some really steep mountain roads. I think that the M8 will pull up those hills a bit stronger because the power does not seem to fall off until about 3600 rpm. The TC103's make their power at higher rpm's but seem to have a bit less torque and so require downshifting when going up huge mountains. When I am climbing small hills in North Florida, I have noticed that my M8 pulls harder up the same hills that my stock TC103 were losing steam on with throttle roll on just causing more intake noise but no more go/getup.

I suspect that in time, Kevin/Devin and others are going to come up with strategies to wake up this single cam M8 engine far more than what comes out of the factory.

I was fortunate to pay significantly less than what your dealer has proposed as a trade but do not know what condition your 2016 trike is in and what you have done to it. Mine looked just about new but had almost 15k miles on the clock with a brand-new front tire and no scratches/dents of any kind. I had everything but the top case luggage rack transferred to my new trike.

I may not be the best referral for upgrade because I just really like the relaxed ride that my Tri Glide provides. If I want to set speed records, I can hop in my 300hp 1400 pound sports car and blow doors off Z06 vets in the twisties and most straight aways as long as it is not the latest iteration.