Swing arm complaint has been submitted to NHTSA

[headheaded]

i just returned from the dealer that is going to work on my trike tuesday. i printed out the pic's at the start of this thread and that made a believer out of them. i can't see how harley can denied these facts and not fix these damn things. we'll see what happens when i get it in there next week. i do have some faith in these guys after talking for quite some time with them. they seem to be willing to do all they can. keep us informed please !

[wlibert]

i just returned from the dealer that is going to work on my trike tuesday. i printed out the pic's at the start of this thread and that made a believer out of them. i can't see how harley can denied these facts and not fix these damn things. we'll see what happens when i get it in there next week. i do have some faith in these guys after talking for quite some time with them. they seem to be willing to do all they can. keep us informed please !

Good I'm glad to see that. My little adventure on Friday is one or two posts back. The people at the place my trike is at now sounded just like you described before taking it in and then the first update today they had a different tune until I did what I did in the post before this one. I agree, HD needs to step it up I'm going to try and call them on Monday again. I don't have any faith in anyone at a dealership right now. I have several dealers around me and I'll take mine to all of them if I have to until someone steps up and does the right thing. I am going to spend the day tomorrow printing every picture I have and take them with me if I have to ride around to all the dealerships. There are 4 of them within 50 miles.

[mirider]

After reading thru this thread (and multiple others on same subject) hard to decide whether OP has a problem with his swing arm bushings because of an alignment issue or vice-versa. Hope he gets it straightened out and reports back on finding. Have not found or read anything that proves it is a wide-spread issue but very interested in the outcome.

[MikeyTX]

After reading thru this thread (and multiple others on same subject) hard to decide whether OP has a problem with his swing arm bushings because of an alignment issue or vice-versa. Hope he gets it straightened out and reports back on finding. Have not found or read anything that proves it is a wide-spread issue but very interested in the outcome.

Vice-versa .............

[wlibert]

Vice-versa .............

After reading thru this thread (and multiple others on same subject) hard to decide whether OP has a problem with his swing arm bushings because of an alignment issue or vice-versa. Hope he gets it straightened out and reports back on finding. Have not found or read anything that proves it is a wide-spread issue but very interested in the outcome.

I started this thread and the dealer where I got my trike has the trike now. There are 3 parts that had to be ordered and they are expecting they will get them on 7/5. I am not declaring victory on this until I ride it a couple of hundred miles. One other dealer evaluated my trike and an independent (former HD tech) looked at it as well and they both looked at all of the pictures that were sent to in response to a request for pictures on another forum and we all agree that there is something wrong with my trike and with the others who chimed in to help me.

I wanted to get wider visibility and more awareness out to trike owners that something may be going on but I have not found a vehicle to do that. I would venture to guess that a good portion of HD trike owners do not participate in an online community. That's why I filed the complaint with NHTSA. The pictures I received from members on the other forum were given to my dealer and the rubber shavings in the pictures does indicate that something is going on inside that swing arm. I look at like this, if you change your oil and examine the magnet on the grain plug you will find a oily paste made of metal. If you drained the oil and the magnet was covered with shavings then you have a big problem. I can understand the bushings wearing to some degree but I would expect to see a black powder not rubber shavings. In my mind that just isn't normal. The pictures at the beginning of this thread tell me that the bearings are the root cause of the rubber shavings. Additionally, it was impossible for anyone who looked at my trike to set the proper belt deflection. Something moved every time.

I had some pretty skilled people come over to my house and help with setting the belt deflection and it just would not hold. The week of June 26th the dealership picked up my trike but the didn't get to it for a couple of days then they told me an important thing, they checked the rear axle alignment and it was with in a few 1000ths of variance, and the belt deflection was right on the edge of being too tight. They said the belt deflection could be different in different spot on the belt and that is exactly what they found. I know what the Trike manual says to do when setting belt deflection and the tightest spot on the belt should be used. When we adjusted my belt we took our time and tried to find the tightest spot and it didn't really matter where on the belt you tried to take a measurement as soon as the belt would tighten down something ad the belt would be too tight.

So right now I'm waiting and NHTSA to call to interview me.

[wlibert]

i just returned from the dealer that is going to work on my trike tuesday. i printed out the pic's at the start of this thread and that made a believer out of them. i can't see how harley can denied these facts and not fix these damn things. we'll see what happens when i get it in there next week. i do have some faith in these guys after talking for quite some time with them. they seem to be willing to do all they can. keep us informed please !

Any update on yours yet?

[MikeyTX]

I truly hope you get more than the standard form letter in return for all your hard work. Having been a buck sgt in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, I have a gut feeling that you won't. That government entity seems to react only after a set number of deaths or other cataclysmic issues occur. YMMV

[wlibert]

I truly hope you get more than the standard form letter in return for all your hard work. Having been a buck sgt in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, I have a gut feeling that you won't. That government entity seems to react only after a set number of deaths or other cataclysmic issues occur. YMMV

I'm with ya on the passing of the buck. I've been down this road before (too many times) with businesses and government agencies so I've learned to set my expectations low and hope for the best. I had to file complaints twice under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act against businesses. It took awhile to get everything in place and in the end it worked out for me. It just takes patience and persistence. Sometimes you win with this stuff and some times you lose. The government came through surprisingly.

The big thing with this issue is raising awareness to a larger audience so that others can check for themselves. The issues I described above were for me and me alone but I think this issue may have a broader scope and I'm frustrated that I can't find away to increase awareness. Maybe it's not an issue at all but we'll never know if it can't be discovered somehow.

In my younger years of life I worked for a local government where I live as a traffic engineer. I did engineering drawings for signs and traffic signals. It was a fun job but you would not believe what people had go through to have new stop signs approved much less a new traffic signal. Kind of odd since most of the documentation that the public provided was about injury and death.

[MikeyTX]

Between the Corps and law enforcement at the county level, my motto is "In God I Trust ............. All Others Pay Cash !"

[wlibert]

Between the Corps and law enforcement at the county level, my motto is "In God I Trust ............. All Others Pay Cash !"

I like the Corvette stuff in your signature. They were in a former life for me. Had two 1999 and a 2009. In between the Corvettes I built a couple supercharged and cammed 2005 GTO's. I bought both of the Corvettes from a life long friend who probably ranks right upper there in regards to Corvette sales across the country. I love the 17's. I spent an hour talking to a retired guy a few days ago that had just picked one up. He pulled right in my neighborhood and stopped at his mailbox. I pulled up and said what someone said to me that I mention below 'Nice car'. He said it was a bucket list thing for him. Had a great time talking car stuff with him.

I went back to riding and working on bikes and trikes after that. I hadn't ridden in 26 yrs. starting in 1984 until 2010. I got hit by a car riding a sportster and damn near lost a leg. In 2010 I decide I would ride again and bought a 2010 Ultra Classic. I rode to Sturgis for the 70th Anniversary Rally two months after I got that bike and went many other places as well. I think it was a 5500 mile trip. I went the next year as well. Had a blast.

I am now disable and lost a very well paying job as a Systems Engineer so the fact that I have a trike at all is a blessing. This issue is frustrating because of that.

I don't know if you've read a book titled 'All Corvettes are Red' but it is about the mission to save the Corvette's demise in 1998 I believe but the Corvette was saved and the C5 went into to production. My former employer was on the board of directors if I remember correctly (a challenge for me with my disability). About two weeks after I got my C5 I had pulled into work on a beautiful spring day and I was putting a cover on my Vette.

I was down on one knee pulling the rope to hold the cover on the car from one side to the other and I heard this rumble behind me. I knew it was more than just a high performance car and then I heard 'Nice Car' I got up and turned around and there was the owner of the company Mr. Bill Marriott (big car guy) in an awesome red convertible Mercedes V12. So I walked over, and honestly shaking in my shoes, told him 'Very nice car too sir'. So he asked me if I was an employee and I said yes and that I had been there 4 years working as a systems engineer. He thanked me for coming in on a Saturday.

Then he asked me if I had read the book 'All Corvettes are Red' I told him no, this was my first Corvette and that I had just started in a computer career and could have never afford something like that before. He told me that part of the goal that GM/Chevy set for the C5 Vette design covered what I just said. Then he said read the book and off he went. I got the book and read it and it definitely was an awesome read for me.

Anyway thank you for your feedback. Internet forums have a ton of knowledge and for the most part nice people on them.

Oh, and thank for serving our country! Something I truly mean lots of local honor guard rides ( already missed three) escorting veterans from airports to DC memorials. A lot of relatives in the military who graduated from West Point. One of which gave his life in Vietnam. Military on my mom's side of the family goes back to the time of the military's involvement with the American Indians and maybe beyond. I might be missing a 'great' in this but my great great grandfather was an interpreter for our government to the American Indian Chief Geronimo.

Our family just heard about a newspaper article that's on ebay for sale (unfortunately). I may buy it, if I don't I think someone else in the family will. There is an effort underway to contact the seller and verify it's authenticity. My great great grandfather was really in a no win situation.

GEORGE WRATTEN - U. S. ARMY SCOUT AND INTERPRETER

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEORGE-WRATT...-/391282926199

[Capt.Bob]

Bill,

What a fascinating story about your great great grandfather and his exploits. He was reportedly one of 500 scouts hired by the Army to find and capture Geronimo who evaded capture for quite some time. It must have been a very confusing time for both your great great grandfather and Geronimo in terms of their relationship and how the government treated Native Americans in captivity. It is also very sad that the great Geronimo succumbed to incarceration in his later years. It is said on his death bed that Geronimo proclaimed that he should have fought until he was the last man standing and been killed in battle. What further makes this story compelling is that he was incarcerated about 3 hours West of where I live at Fort Pickens in Pensacola, Florida. However, some of Geronimo's fellow Apaches felt that his armed insurrections against the Army led to harsher treatment of his fellow Native Americans.

It appears that both men were fearsome warriors in their own right. I suspect that in your younger years sans your current physical limitations that people didn't mess with you as well given your genetic background

Unlike your great great grandfather who died after falling off a horse, your fate of falling off your iron horse did not ultimately take you out like your great great grandfather. The story is just too thick with irony!

Glad you are riding and enjoying a trike. Keep us informed about how it goes with NHTSA and your concerns. We all benefit from getting a better handle on what is going on with our suspensions.

[wlibert]

Bill,

What a fascinating story about your great great grandfather and his exploits. He was reportedly one of 500 scouts hired by the Army to find and capture Geronimo who evaded capture for quite some time. It must have been a very confusing time for both your great great grandfather and Geronimo in terms of their relationship and how the government treated Native Americans in captivity. It is also very sad that the great Geronimo succumbed to incarceration in his later years. It is said on his death bed that Geronimo proclaimed that he should have fought until he was the last man standing and been killed in battle. What further makes this story compelling is that he was incarcerated about 3 hours West of where I live at Fort Pickens in Pensacola, Florida. However, some of Geronimo's fellow Apaches felt that his armed insurrections against the Army led to harsher treatment of his fellow Native Americans.

It appears that both men were fearsome warriors in their own right. I suspect that in your younger years sans your current physical limitations that people didn't mess with you as well given your genetic background

Unlike your great great grandfather who died after falling off a horse, your fate of falling off your iron horse did not ultimately take you out like your great great grandfather. The story is just too thick with irony!

Glad you are riding and enjoying a trike. Keep us informed about how it goes with NHTSA and your concerns. We all benefit from getting a better handle on what is going on with our suspensions.

Thank you! and there is more irony to it too.

I have a very large American Indian Heritage in my blood including an renowned American Indian Sculptor and Artist with sculptures and Art in museums around the world. His works are in places like National Museum of the American Indian for starters about 45 miles south my house. His name is Allan Houser. So I can feel the pain on both sides of the coin I guess in regards to our government and the relationship with the American Indian.

[wlibert]

I am on here at 4:00am EST ( I don't sleep much) to report I got a called yesterday, 7/6/17, and was told my trike is ready for pickup. There was no bearing damage in the swing arm, however there was movement. They were glad I pushed forward and got help from others to shine some light on the situation and show them pictures of a situation that quite likely could be occurring given the rubber debris behind the caps. Every thing but the shocks were replaced in the rear of my trike that is suspension related including a rear motor mount of some sort.

I was informed that the rubber fragments that I discovered and so did others on this forum and one other are NOT normal. It is excessive wear. At worst there should be nothing more than a fine black powder in there. Root cause: unkown

I need to update the other forum and then go to a third where I started a thread last night explaining this same issue.

I will not declare any victory until I have 2 to 3 hundred miles on my trike to ensure all of the symptoms are gone. I will also continue to watch this issue here and on the other forums and keep people updated as the NHTSA complaint moves along, hopefully! Feel free to contact me here or via email: wlibert@hotmail.com

Thank you everyone who has participated in this thread. Problem or not you all made a contribution and that's what forums should be about.

[wlibert]

I picked up my trike today and well I got a problem and this damn thing is too tight. You gotta look at the picture at the bottom to understand.

Before I left the dealership the director of Customer Relations that has been very helpful and professional in the effort to correct this issue wanted to show me the parts from the swing arm, tell me what they found, and then review what was done to rectify the situation so here is what I was told

• The rubber wear seen in the area combined with the pictures causes concern in their minds so that is why they decided to replace everything - thank you everyone who participated for sending me pictures. They showed my the rubber mounts and see where they are worn but root cause: unknown
  
• They did not find damage bearings in the swing arm and showed me bearings. But, the rubber shavings generate concern that something is going on in there
  
• The darting off the road issue I reported - they were finally able to reproduce it and they said after rebuilding every thing the dart issue is no longer there. And the were firm about this, the trike will never hold a straight line on a road with a crown. It's the same as a car. It will ways drift away from the crown in the road. If it's climbing the crown then the rear end is not in alignment. A two wheeler can do a better job of dealing with a road with a crown in it. They said like car and unlike a motorcycle there is a lot of wind hitting both the airing and the fenders it going to have an effect.
  
• Inability to get belt deflection correct. They told me that when they set the belt deflection right after they picked up the belt did tighten further however once they replaced everything and aligned the rear end the belt deflection could be properly set
  

The following parts were replaced:

Pivot shaft qty: 1

Rear engine isolators qty: 2

Pivot shaft nut qty: 2

Cup washer qty: 2

Pivot bearing qty: 2

Labor N/C normal cost 3.75 hrs @ $102.00

They also told me:

• The herky jerky motion when giving the trike throttle or letting off the trottle is gone - Yes it is
  
• The transmission shifts should be clicks not clunks and there will be times when I shift that I think I missed a gear - Yes the shifting sound is significantly quieter
  
• Please go to this section of road and I will be able to drive on a flat surface at 55mph and it's on my way home. Call us when you get home and tell us your findings
  
• And lastly they said thank you for your calmness and polite attitude with us. It was a delicate situation and you handled with out loosing your cool and convey a stiff message in regards to your actions without a threatening ton. Thank you for not throwing around names in regards to this and finger pointing
  

The last thing I did was ask them for help to make this issue more visible and they said that is up to HD but it works like this. When a customer makes it to the Customer Relations Management Team the management team is required to document the whole situation, submit any pictures they take, and turn in all parts that are replaced. All of this effort is done but the customer relations staff and a report is submitted to HD. And I was told that parts when parts fail that were designed for longevity fail the parts there is a process to record that information in the work order and flag it as requiring additional attention.

How true is all that I have no idea.

I have two other forums involved now and I need to update the threads there but be rest assured I am now in this for the for long haul.

So I got could use some help and and it's easy!

I can't get this F'ing helmet off of my head. I chit you not, damn it. This is the third time. I had to have it cut off the last time at a dealership. I thought they were going to open up my throat with the cut off wheel. The quick release won't detach. I can't get the strap to loosen up, and the strap is so tight I can't slide it up over my chin. Fortunately, I just got a text from wife and she is on her way home. She thinks it's going to take her about an hour and half.

[MikeyTX]

Sharp scissors ? Stand in front of a mirror so you don't stab yourself.

[Gorilla]

That is the reason I gave up on using those quick release for the helmet strap. They either got stuck or broke. Good luck getting it loose.

[MikeyTX]

Yeah that ! A lot of shops here in TX have quit carrying them because they have the nasty habit of coming open at the wrong time.

[mirider]

Before I left the dealership the director of Customer Relations that has been very helpful and professional in the effort to correct this issue wanted to show me the parts from the swing arm, tell me what they found, and then review what was done to rectify the situation so here is what I was told

• The rubber wear seen in the area combined with the pictures causes concern in their minds so that is why they decided to replace everything - thank you everyone who participated for sending me pictures. They showed my the rubber mounts and see where they are worn but root cause: unknown
  
• They did not find damage bearings in the swing arm and showed me bearings. But, the rubber shavings generate concern that something is going on in there
  
• The darting off the road issue I reported - they were finally able to reproduce it and they said after rebuilding every thing the dart issue is no longer there. And the were firm about this, the trike will never hold a straight line on a road with a crown. It's the same as a car. It will ways drift away from the crown in the road. If it's climbing the crown then the rear end is not in alignment. A two wheeler can do a better job of dealing with a road with a crown in it. They said like car and unlike a motorcycle there is a lot of wind hitting both the airing and the fenders it going to have an effect.
  
• Inability to get belt deflection correct. They told me that when they set the belt deflection right after they picked up the belt did tighten further however once they replaced everything and aligned the rear end the belt deflection could be properly set
  

The following parts were replaced:

Pivot shaft qty: 1

Rear engine isolators qty: 2

Pivot shaft nut qty: 2

Cup washer qty: 2

Pivot bearing qty: 2

Labor N/C normal cost 3.75 hrs @ $102.00

They also told me:

• The herky jerky motion when giving the trike throttle or letting off the throttle is gone - Yes it is
  
• The transmission shifts should be clicks not clunks and there will be times when I shift that I think I missed a gear - Yes the shifting sound is significantly quieter
  
• Please go to this section of road and I will be able to drive on a flat surface at 55mph and it's on my way home. Call us when you get home and tell us your findings
  
• And lastly they said thank you for your calmness and polite attitude with us. It was a delicate situation and you handled with out loosing your cool and convey a stiff message in regards to your actions without a threatening tone. Thank you for not throwing around names in regards to this and finger pointing
  

The last thing I did was ask them for help to make this issue more visible and they said that is up to HD but it works like this. When a customer makes it to the Customer Relations Management Team the management team is required to document the whole situation, submit any pictures they take, and turn in all parts that are replaced. All of this effort is done but the customer relations staff and a report is submitted to HD. And I was told that parts when parts fail that were designed for longevity fail the parts there is a process to record that information in the work order and flag it as requiring additional attention.

After reading and re-reading this post four or five times I am still somewhat confused as to what the problem was or if there even was a problem ??? Sometimes weird things happen and your alignment issue was hopefully solved. The real question should be what caused the issue in the first place. I note the dealer replaced a bunch of parts but were they bad or did they just shot-gun it? You state they told you the swing arm bearings were OK so what did they say caused the debris you found ?

IMO the NHTSA is unlikely to take any action without some definitive problem documented and I doubt HD will either. Glad you apparently got the problem fixed whatever it was. Please keep us informed of any future developments.

[rhino 2]

Sometime Sh*t just happens......

[headheaded]

on my trike the pivot shaft was loose and it wore on the bushings. this allowed the shaft to move around inside of the bushings. my swingarm bearings were fine. i could see the play in my swingarm when jacking the trike up.