dissapearing oil??

[bounder04]

I have owned different Harley Davidson bikes since 1992 and have always performed most maintenence on them (oil changes) between 3K - 3.5k miles. Today, 3,425 mi since the last change in July, I decided to drain the oil from the engine and transmision on my '09 Ultra but much to my surpise, only 2 qts. 3 oz. came out of the engine and 12 oz. from the transmision!!!
There is no evidence of any leaks any where on the engine and the under body is totally dry. Last time i cheked the fluid levels, they where correct!!
Has any one experiensed this before?? or have an explanation for this?? Where is the oil going??

[Bikerbozo]

Just a complete guess. Any chance of oil migrating to primary case through worn seals?
Or maybe secret government testing of oil eating microbes as a plot to mess with you?

[Blondie Gal]

If it's the latter, BP would like to talk with you . . .

[1550vt]

bounder....I truly believe you must pay attention to details more than most. I never would have actually measured what I drain out, unless I had really noticed the shortage like you apparently did.

If the missing fluids are not dripping off the machine...they did not blow out. It is unlikely you have "misted" close to 1/2 your fluids, unless you averaged 95-100mph for this 3,425 mile run. There is only one place you have not mentioned, and like someone above has noted....drain your primary and see what comes out.

It's a bit difficult to imagine how close to 1/2 of your fluids from both the engine and transmission got over there into the primary, unless the cases are under pressure. If you drain your primary and find that waste oil normal, you are left with about only one choice. You failed to put the correct amount of fluids in the last time you changed them. I hate to suggest that and I know you said you checked them between the change, but if things are not leaking, misting or smoking.....there does not seem to be too many answers left. You either still have some in there somewhere that has not drained out, or you did not have enough in there in the first place.

Another thing to do (which is something you really should not do) is remove the plug in the bottom of the engine cases and see what comes out. This NPT (pipe plug) was never intended to be removed and is there to make an opening for machining inside the case. Some folks do it because they are paranoid about the dirty oil in the bottom end. If you remove this plug DO NOT over-tighten it when you replace it or you will crack a case. I have also heard of people cracking the case just trying to remove this plug.

If it were me....I would drain the primary and replace all the fluids and see what comes out the next time I changed it.

[tfdeputydawg]

My understanding is you never get all the old out unless you use one of the "complete oil change" gadgets available

[1550vt]

I think if you have her heated-up....you should get more out than bounder did....especially from the tranny. 12 ounces is only around 1/2 or less than what he would have had in there if it had been properly filled. I am sure bounder had the bike in the correct position for it all to drain....like...dead-level. If he had drained it just sitting on the side-stand....all of it won't come out.

[BlueTrinity]

I have the same set up (HD/CSC) and a couple of things to consider.

The change should be make with warm engine.

With the 4 quart capacity you will never get that amount out of the case. In addition to the amounts that stay in the engine itself, you have oil left in the filter and if like me, you have an oil cooler, that system does not drain itself.

I've never gotten as little as you state, but I have gotten as little as 3 qts. Gotta admit though that I've never measured a precisely as you.

What you didn't mention is how much fluid you put back in to bring it back to the full dipstick levels. It will take just about a half-quart more than what came out to fill the filter. My change typically takes right around 3.5 qts.

My opinion is that with as new as your trike is, you've got some sort of abberation here. As long as you regularly change the fluids and there are no variations in the dipstick levels between changes, you have nothing to worry about. Fluids simply cannot disappear from the system with out showing up on the dipsticks.

Good luck. I look forward to hearing what you find at the next change.

[bounder04]

Thank you all for your inputs... going back to some of your comments; I had the trike leveled when draining the eng & tanny oils and I rode it for about 3 miles before draining so the engine was hot!
I do remember taking some oil out of the engine on the prior change (about 3 months ago) because I was spraying oil out the air filter when riding 60-70+ mph on highways, so I checked it and when hot, the level was above the fill bar on the dipstick (straight up).
I do know that i put 40oz, of oil in the tranny to reach the full mark because i have a champion reverse which increases the oil volume in the tranny. This was all last time i changed the fluids and what surprised me the most a couple of days ago when i drained both eng & tranny. I also do not have an explanation for this exessive comsumption.
When i refilled both this last time, i put 3.5 qts. in the engine and 40 oz. in the tranny.... both are now reading where they should.
I will keep on checking the level every time i ride it and see what happens.

[1550vt]

bounder....let me apologize for being an idiot....I have to do that a lot as I get older. I had been cruising the various forums and had my brain on 2-wheeler and not trike when I mentioned the side-stand thing. There is not much of a way you can't get a trike level unless you park it in a ditch.

My bad....let us know what comes out at the next change. If it had 40 ounces in the tranny, surely you should have drained something close to a little more that a quart out.

Stupid question....I do not have one and have never seen one but I know that reverse bolts on the rh side and replaces the trap door. Are we sure there is not some other drain-plug in the bottom of that reverse unit?

[bounder04]

no problem 1550vt.... we all have our days :no:
there is no other drain plug on the trap.. anyway, I was able to refill the tranny with 40 oz. of fresh mobil1 90-140! so some how it "dissapeared"!!!!!
I'll keep vigilance and post updates.

[bullet 10]

Does the 6 speed tranny hold 40oz of lube. My 5 speed only held about 30oz. This means buying 2 qts instide of 1.

[bounder04]

Does the 6 speed tranny hold 40oz of lube. My 5 speed only held about 30oz. This means buying 2 qts instide of 1.

bullet 10 - My tranny has been modified with a reverse gear expanding the case trap door thus requireing more oil.
If you do not have a mechanical reverse on your trike, then you maintain the oil requirement on your manual.

[skuuter]

Keep us posted on Your checks....even though I don't own a Harley right now, I'm always interested in these type Threads...never too much knowledge.....:wtg:

[bounder04]

Well after closely monitoring the "dissapearing oil" issue on my bike, I believe i have a theory of what is going on. Since my last fluids change, I continue to loose Transmission oil with no visual oil leak under the bike. After concidering some of the oil blogs on this site, I decided to replace the 20W50 Syn oil in the tranny with Mobil1 75W140 about 600 miles ago to see if the heavier oil would make a difference. Last Saturday after returning from our TOI ride, I checked the tranny oil level and the dip stick was dry again! I then checked the engine oil and it was way over the full mark and the oil was like molases, smelling like gear oil! It is obvious that Tranny oil is some how going into the crank case. Does anyone know if/how this is possible??
Please advise......

[Gorilla]

Well after closely monitoring the "dissapearing oil" issue on my bike, I believe i have a theory of what is going on. Since my last fluids change, I continue to loose Transmission oil with no visual oil leak under the bike. After concidering some of the oil blogs on this site, I decided to replace the 20W50 Syn oil in the tranny with Mobil1 75W140 about 600 miles ago to see if the heavier oil would make a difference. Last Saturday after returning from our TOI ride, I checked the tranny oil level and the dip stick was dry again! I then checked the engine oil and it was way over the full mark and the oil was like molases, smelling like gear oil! It is obvious that Tranny oil is some how going into the crank case. Does anyone know if/how this is possible??
Please advise......

The transmission and engine share the same oil pan on your Harley. The pan is divided with a baffle to keep the oils seperated. It appears that is not happening in your case. Drop the pan and see whats happening in there.

[ultraboy]

The 'oil pan' only has engine oil in it. The baffle in the pan separates the returning scavenge oil from the feed oil. The transmission oil is in the transmission. There is a passage from the trans, which goes through the oil pan to the trans drain plug on the bottom of the pan. This passage is sealed by the oil pan gasket to prevent mixing of the two fluids. You are going to have to drop the pan to find out if the gasket was installed correctly, or some other fault exists with the sealing.

[bounder04]

Now if this is what the problem is, then is something that does not happen due to wear and tear??!! It should be covered under warranty.....

[ultraboy]

It is not a 'normal' deal at all, and most surely should be covered under warranty.

[mmkrnh8012]

I guess that shows to go you. I though that they were completely seperate and could not get together. I have a wing, so you can learn something everyday.

[ultraboy]

Under 'normal' conditions, they can't. Bounder either has a bad/incorrectly installed pan gasket, or some other malady, like a defect in the parts, or cracks, etc. Should be pretty obvious, once the pan is pulled.