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Thread: Need VW type3 DP 1600 heads

  1. #21
    Old Redneck Motorhead
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    Well.....it does sound like good news.

    Can not feel excessive end play. Yes it takes a dial indicator to accurately measure it.

    But things are looking up though.

    Keep going.

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    Default The Good The Bad and The Beat Goes On...

    Well as you can see my heads are a little different than yours so I'll have to fashion a spring compressor tool a little different. It looks like I can use the rocker assembly mount posts as a fulcrum point... I went and bought rope and a bolt and nuts and then discovered the differences... As you can see the rear ex valve spring on #4 came out in pieces with no tools required and the good news is the valve is moving and though it feels like it could use a good lapping it does not seem to be bent and neither does the pushrod)) I'll stuff the rope in there next. Then I'll try to remove the intake valve spring on #3 and I already know it will not need any tools to get it out....

    I also ordered one of those Endoscope flexible inspection camera so I can see inside better so I hope to post some pic's of what it see's. I'll try and get some replacement springs tomorrow or the next day. Is it possible to service the oil cooler? Someone posted I think on Samba that the type 3 oil cooler's are not available? I also could not find one yet.... Or can I just use a type 1? Thank you again for all your help!!! You guys are the BEST!!!
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  3. #23
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    Default Rebuild time...

    Welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll I went to buy some replacement valve springs but instead came home with two used replacement heads. Found a VW shop not so far from here in Mountain View CA that is helping me out. They need a minimal clean up to re install. So while I'm readying the heads and gettting ready to rebuild the carbs my ex mechanic friend comes by and though he is not yet a VW guru we were able to check and found the dreaded clunk and could see the crank end play moving too far as he said. So now I'm in the process of getting the motor out of the frame and off to the machine shop.....Here are some more pics. I did get the endoscope so you can see the top of the pistons thru the spark plug holes. Though I do see holes in the top of the pistons I think maybe they are supposed to be there? Very interesting so far.... And it's as if you fortune told the history of this motor as you'll see the debris in between the cylinders where there should have been just cooling air.....
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  4. #24
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    Looks like something went down the intake at some point.

    Probably have matching impressions in the head.

    Sorry to hear about the endplay.

  5. #25
    400+ Posts vwbug72501's Avatar
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    The small round "hole" depression that you see in the center of all the pistons is part of the piston. I've seen these before. The one piston shows where the valve head contacted the piston when the spring broke. Doesn't look bad so you may be able to dress down the sharp edges and be alright. The rest of the rough surface looks like normal carbon build up and the walls look good (the parts we can see). You might get by with a set of rings. Check the ring end gaps when you get it apart.

    The sticks and leaves, etc on the cooling fins is the normal collection of "stuff" from driving for many years. Nothing to worry about.

    Check the sealing edge surfaces of the cylinders to the heads for signs of "blow by" usually dark stains in lines across the surfaces. This is a sign of loose heads. This is caused by 2 things: 1. Normal expansion / contraction of the heads and cylinders causing the head torque to loosen. Normally you would want to check and retorque the head studs every couple of years. 2. Head studs pulling out of the crankcase threaded holes due to age, metal fatigue, or over torquing of the head studs. Newer cases and a lot of reworked older cases will have "case savers" installed to eliminate this problem. Case savers are basically helicoils installed in the cases to spread out the load on the threads.

    type1gasket.jpg An extreme example on left cylinder.

    Check your heads very carefully for hairline cracks in the areas between the valve seats and the spark plug holes. Clean the area and use a magnifier. If there are cracks, the heads are unusable! This is becoming more and more common as the pool of original parts is getting older and older.

    crackedhead.jpg

    Depending on how the top end checks out you might only have to rebuild the bottom end and reassemble the top end with what you have. With the excessive end play you will probably need the cases align bored. Check the crank, cam, and rods for clearance and roundness. You might get by with out regrinding or refurbishing if you are staying with a stock or almost stock engine. Stockers are pretty forgiving.

    Good Luck!

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    Default

    Oh that's Awesome!!! Thank you so much!!!! I've seen many motorcycle pistons and some auto's however these are the first I see with holes by design... Last night I clamped a digital caliper to my frame and tried to measure the crank end play and basically in various positions of the crank sort of random places I got between 002 and 006 thousandths. So I think the crank end play is border line of the spec being 003-005 on a rebuilt crank/case. I also spoke to a mechanic at a local gas station and he said every VW he ever checked had that same clunk so I'm wondering if I really need to split the case? A couple of machine shops I contacted made it sound like it's mandatory however I'm feeling on the fence about it. I guess considering that I have an oil leak on the clutch side of the motor, I might as well pull it and at least replace that oil seal and If I'm not mistaken I can check the crank end play on that side of the motor as well however will probably need to mount it in an engine stand to do that?

    You guys are still the BEST and I wish everyone Happy Holidays!!!!

    I'll post some pictures of the combustion chambers and pistons when I get the heads off, to compare with the endoscope pic's....

  7. #27
    400+ Posts vwbug72501's Avatar
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    Remember that the VW is a 1937 design. One of the original design parameters was to accommodate the average 1940's German owner (People's Car) who did not have a garage. It was air cooled so you didn't have to worry about antifreeze. The engine can be removed easily (Unplug some wires, disconnect a couple of cables, and remove 4 bolts.) so the owner could pull the engine and set it on his kitchen table to repair it.

    The engine requires routine maintenance unlike today's cars. There are a lot of specialty tools developed for VWs that make a mechanic's life easier but a great number of these tasks can be accomplished with very basic tools. Using the basic tool method will probably take a little longer, but, hey, you're not on the clock making a living.

    That being said, an engine stand is nice but you can do a lot of repairs on the bench or on the floor with 2x4s for stability. There's actually a way to check the crank end play without a dial indicator using feeler gauges. Slower, but it works.

    If this was my trike and I was new to triking, I'd be interested in getting up on 3 as economically as possible to see how much I liked it before sinking $$$$ into my trike. You've got to pull the engine anyway so here's how I'd proceed:

    1. Pull the engine and get it on a stable work surface.

    2. Check the crank end play at the flywheel. If it is close to, or slightly (.0001-.002") over the max, you might be able to do a longer term "temporary" fix with shims. We'll come back to this.

    3. Check the torque on the heads. This is counter intuitive now but will make sense later. Look for a "soft" feel or the inability to properly torque the studs, especially #3.

    This may indicate the need for "case savers" and you are going to have to split the cases.

    4. Pull the heads. It's not unusual for 1 or more of the studs to come out rather than the nuts coming off. Remove the nuts and reinstall the studs to the same holes after the heads are removed. Inspect where the studs go into the cases. Do they thread directly into the case or are there inserts (case savers) in the case that the studs thread into? Inserts are good.

    5. Check the torque on the studs that keep the case halves together.

    6. Put the new heads on but don't torque. You don't have to install the push rod tubes either.

    7. Remove the flywheel. You will need a flywheel lock tool and a 36mm 3/4" drive breaker bar for this. you will need some way to hold the engine as the Gland nut holding the flywheel has around 300 ft-lbs of torque. I have set the engine on the floor and slid it up under a car with 2x4 blocks to hold the engine from trying to roll over when removing and installing a flywheel. Be careful not to put ANY pressure on the head fins. THEY WILL BREAK!

    8. Remove the fly wheel and seal. There are shims on the crankshaft that set the end play. Usually 3 shims. You can get shims in different thicknesses to adjust the end play as needed. Any VW engine builder will have a bunch of these. Follow the procedure in the service manual to set the end play then install the new seal. Reinstall the flywheel.

    9. Inspect the push rod tubes and seals. If the seals are still soft and the tubes aren't rusted out then stretch out tubes out a little and reuse.

    10. Reinstall and re-torque the heads. Paying attention to the feel of the torque sequence if no stud inserts in cases.

    You now have a stock 1600 that will push you down the road for a while for the price of a shim and a seal. I wouldn't plan any cross country trips until the engine proves itself. Just putt around town for a while. This could buy you time until you can save up and take advantage of a "good deal" engine or rebuild when it comes along.

  8. #28
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    Good advice there.

    Unless you have a definite deal breaker problem like huge end play I also would just patch it up and run it. At least for long enough to diagnose it fully and see the oil pressure.

  9. #29
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    Default Headless Bug...

    Well My Goodness!!! It's like you all channel my Inner Triker We are all thinking the same thing and thus I am proceeding cautiously of spending more $$$ on this project until I can ride / use it long enough to tell if it will rock my world

    Right now all four pistons and barrels are soaking in Kerosene. Other than some light clean up on number 3 and 4 as you could see in the prior pictures, I'm very pleased at how good everything else looks!!! It seems this motor did not run that much or long as there is hardly any carbon buildup!!! So far with both the #'s 3 and 4 pistons I used a flat file to take off some of what I would call corrosion on the top's of the pistons, as well as a wire wheel on my bench grinder and a very fine sand paper. I was able to clean up the small valve dent on #4 to my satisfaction. My guess is this motor sat for a very long time and a slight roughness has happened in two of the cylinders and some pocking (little crators) formed on the top of the pistons... I'll try a little emery cloth to smooth any cylinder roughness. Numbers 1 and 2 look hardly used however I still took them off for a better look. So far, of what I can see inside the case, nothing looks funky other than sludgy oil build up. I'm thinking I will pour Kerosene in the Ccase and turn it by hand a couple of times to attempt to get some of it cleaned out. Then I might have to cycle some oil thru it go get back to normal.

    As you already knew it would happen On number 3 the upper left cylinder stud had too much corrosion under the nut so the whole stud came out. It all looks ok but I have not yet tried to re torgue things. I did notice on both sides there was one nut that seemed not torqued as they came off too easy, hoping they were just loose....

    What is the best thing to treat the cylinder studs with? Copper anti seeze? just a little oil? nothing? or loctite? Used a wire wheel on air grinder to remove the dirt buildup.

    Back on the pistons, yes they all have a small hole in the center and an arrow that points to the transmission end of the motor. The Endoscope pictures made the condition look worse than reality as most of what you could see just wiped right off)) Very Nice!!!

    Hope to get the engine out the frame today or tomorrow and have some before and after pictures for you...

    Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays and Happy Triking!!!

  10. #30
    400+ Posts vwbug72501's Avatar
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    So far, so good!

    Look at the case where the stud threads in. Is there a heli-coil looking insert for the threads or does the stud thread directly into the case material? If no heli-coil inserts, be especially careful when re-torquing the heads so you don't pull the stud threads out of the case. This is a very common problem with older (lots of heat cycles = metal fatigue) cases. If you have a stud that won't hold torque you're going to have to rebuild the cases.(Unless you can find an Old School "self-tapping repair stud". Think hens tooth) The common symptom of this condition is a stud that goes almost to torque and then feels "soft". Usually #3 cylinder is the first to have problems.

    You might have shot yourself in the foot by removing the heads and cylinders before you pulled the engine and broke the gland nut (holds the flywheel to the crankshaft) loose. The gland nut has about 300 ft-lbs of torque on it. I usually use a 3/4 drive 36mm socket and breaker bar (not ratchet) and a 6 foot pipe to loosen it. I have an engine stand that I can lock into position so the motor won't flip around. You might be able to fabricate a lever arm out of angle iron that attaches to the motor mount studs / bolts on the engine bellhousing flange to give you the mechanical advantage when removing / installing the gland nut. Just park something heavy (car, big friend, etc.) on the far end of the angle iron.

    Good luck!

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