My Trike

[grandpanystrom61]

I am so thankful for you links and tips Rex, I just ordered some bushings for the IRS rebuild for now.

Spent the morning reading and learning more. Than I had went over to samba to look up some articles about the pressure relief valve.

I got more of an education than I expected, read a lot of questions and answers, took piecing together this and that to figure out what might be going on with my engine.

First off, when I decided to put the temp. sensor in place of the plug to the pressure relief valve, well it dropped out and I could not tell how it went back in, flat side first with the cup side facing the spring is what I gathered as the proper way it sits. The control valve is same, flat side first with the cup side facing the spring.

The diagrams I looked over were not 100% the engine and oil route, so a question ?

Does the control valve actually control the flow of oil through the stock cooler that is mounted in the fan shroud, or is the oil always flowing through the cooler ?

Now if I have the, lost the name, adapter plate that covers the original cooler mount, for the external cooler, the bottom line out of the fan shroud is the supply line of oil ??

and than the top port would be the return line from the external cooler ?

I also had water drain out of the valve covers when I had checked my valve clearances the other day, but no sign of water in the oil I drained out of the engine. And the white oil/water film was present, really got me wondering how water got in.

My mind told me condensation, water from the air. Still not sure where it came from, but today I read about how if the pressure relief valve spring is to strong, keeping the valve closed, than a back up of condensation can occur and as the engine and oil heats up this turns to steam and increased pressure can cause the valve to open. This makes me think than all that crude goes into the oil pan.

regardless, I checked more as I read and it is a long chromed spring that takes a lot of strength and pressure against to thread in the plug or sensor, they both are the same length, so as I read I found the chromed spring is aftermarket spring to improve oil pressure, basically stronger than stock so it keeps the pressure relief valve closed to long, and that is not stock operation.

So earlier I took off the hoses and removed the breather box to see what it looked like inside, and of course clean it up, have new hose on the way.



than I had to look inside the box.





So the real question is, does this crude come from the valve covers up into the breather box, or does it come from the breather box down into the valve covers ?

Yes the oil fill tube has the vent port and the hose ran from there to the breather box, so is this the path it takes to enter the breather box to accumulate and than it drains down into the valve cover's ??? lost on this one.

I do know I spent some time cleaning the extension tube of the fill tube, the vent port was just full of the white oil/water crude, or is just the foam created by water/oil and heat ?

I did not look for the sensor adapter that would allow it to be inline to the oil cooler, not yet, but if it is not available, I think I can make it, 1/2" dia hole drilled thru the block, tape threads for the nipples, come down center from the side drilling and tapping the sensor port. In line sensor mounting block, or is the control valve plug the better location ?

[Jack Klarich]

I'm not familiar with a VW engine oiling system

What I do know is an internal combustion engine will have some moisture in the oil especially during short runs

The oil does not get hot enough to burn off all the condensation, 1 by product of combustion

The oil mist should rise to a higher point in the engine, it is lighter than the moisture IMO

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Ok then.....Yes the piston and spring does control oil flow to the stock cooler. But it does it in an odd way. It does not turn on and turn off flow like you want to think of it doing. It is more of a pressure bypass.....sorta.... It creates a path of least resistance. The cooler is not turned off but instead there is no flow because there is an easier way open or closed.

All this flow controll is done with oil pressure. If you change the spring or do something that changes the oil pressure you have also altered the functionality of the stock cooler set up.

So always run the stock springs with the stock cooler or a cooler hooked to the stock location.

Now once you do the full flow mods AND no longer use the stock cooler porting at all then you can play with the springs.

But you can full flow and also use the stock cooler at the same time with stock springs (or stock replacements).

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Water poured out?

Condensation does happen. A lot of short runs never getting to full temp plus the humidity does sweat up and make the milky mess all over the place. But seldom enough water to pour out.

I want to think more of rain and an exposed engine to get enough water to pour out.

Excessive oil pressure would make heat. And that would likely evaporate the water. I have overheated oil to the point of making foam that was simular to what you have. But yours does look more like water to me.

[DeathBySnuSnu]

And for what is in and out.

[grandpanystrom61]

Not I see how that much water could have built up inside of the engine, but the damp air filter from rain, the trike sat out covered in the drive way all last year, brought it back into the garage this fall, or told the wife I was selling it.

Short runs, really all I have done with it. Once I got the temp. tank installed I would run it for 15 minutes a day, think I got 4 days in before I realized I lost to much fuel, and that oil stank bad.

Is there a flush idea, or just do a fill with 5/30 w for a run, than drain it out good, and refill with the proper oil, or just put in the better oil and run for 3,000 miles or less before the next oil change ?

Cooler oil I am sure will make a difference, but we will find out once all is as it should be, okay I hope all is good and works out for the best, at least long enough for me to figure a few other things out.

[grandpanystrom61]

Good day to everyone, so I got into the bearings of the right side. Not super worn, but inner bearing is worn more, but that sleeve spacer that the axle slides in, well I can see wear on the axle shaft, kind a grooved by the long sleeve spacer.

I have to clean up some for pic's, but I started the left side last night, out bearing was worn into two pieces, still at it, but hope to compare ware.

Grease was old, some hardened up, and seals a bit rusted in place, no paper gasket was used on the bearing hubs, but know I do know why the left side camber was so off.

I do wonder about the drive axles and CV joints, at least I would think one should clean out old grease and re pack the with new grease ? wrong or right......... or does one just get new drive axles and CV joints together and replace the old that way ?

I do have things to get done today, no I have not ordered any bearings or drive shafts yet, not sure what I got or need yet. So much fun, sure do hope all have a wonderful day today..

[DeathBySnuSnu]

If I remember correctly....the center area of the shaft is undercut a bit. The space sleeve does not fit tight on shaft but sandwiches between the two bearings.

The area of the shaft where the bearing rides need to be a snug fit. Also the bores the bearings fit need to be snug. As in not ovaled out from a spinning race. Closely check that one with the split race.

Chances are that it has been run with the brake drums loose or not fully tight. Them things are supposed to be mega tight... as in special tools kinda tight.

[grandpanystrom61]

I do have one last seal to remove, a little more clean up, than really look over the clean parts for the excessive wear.

Do not forget the drums, probably still good, but all should be checked out.

Oh yes, I discovered yesterday I get to get new tires, not that I want to spend the money, but the old tires sat to long, weather cracked, flat spots, and of course one does have excessive wear.

For now, the oil cooler will be mounted up under the fiber glass body, out of the way, but in the way of air flow so it can do it's job and cool the oil.

Now I have decided to change exhaust pipes eventually, I prefer each side to have its own exhaust pipe, leaves center of engine open, which I want, and than one can mount the oil cooler with the fan mounted off the back of the fiberglass body, were the exhaust pipe used to be......... good idea or bad one...... I see it as about the only place for it, remember they are not small units and take up space.

Or would one run the cooler all the way up front, behind the forks, would all the oil line cause issues, yes volume of oil would increase, but can the oil pump handle moving that extra oil that long of a distance ?

Next check, a fun one, need to inspect and check clearance of the oil pump, and hope I can figure out what size it is.

Thank you everyone, I really did need the help, and I am doing it with confidence. This is a good thing.

[vwbug72501]

Good work so far!

My $.02 on the oil cooler: Get a 4 or 6 tube cooler with out a fan and mount it in front of the engine fan opening in the shroud. I ran this configuration on multiple vehicles for many thousands of miles for many years and never had a problem. The VW engine was designed to come out easily as a unit by disconnecting a couple of cables, hoses, and wires, and removing 4 bolts. By mounting the oil cooler on the shroud this functionality is retained. Mounting at the rear on the body might be in a low air flow vacuum area (ever notice how dust collects on the back of an SUV?). Mounting it up front adds additional hose length / oil volume issues and points of failure. An electric fan is one more thing to fail.

Ther are 2 different style oil pumps, one for "flat" cam gears and the other for "dished" cam gears. The only way that i know to determine what you have installed on a modified engine (if you didn't build it or see it built yourself) is to pull the oil pump and look at the face of the cam gear. Here is a Samba post discussion about oil pump removal and some tips: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/ar...-363360--.html

There are youtube videos that show the puller and how it works. One of those inexpensive specialty tools that I mentioned in an earlier post.

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Mounting a cooler over the fan intake might not be ideal.....but with an open engine and light load you should be fine.

I would be more worried about have the correct springs on the oil control than I would be be worried about the cooler over intake.

Pull the fan housing off and clean out the mouse nest, dirt dobbers, wasp nest.

Change the oil.

Adjust the valves.

Put a simple cooler on it.

Clean out the carbs.

Clean the points.

Change the condenser.

Change the spark plugs.

Crank it up.

Monitor the oil pressure.

If it has decent pressure then don't worry about what pump is in it.

Drive it.

Drive it some more.

Check compression psi to see if it has evened out.

If then you have oil pressure and the compression is not crazy uneven and the head temp and oil temp stay reasonable. Run the fool out of it.

You have a modified engine you should be happy with the power. One day when it starts getting weak...low psi on 3....low oil pressure...ect.

Then start playing with the insides and put a better fan housing and oil cooler set up on it.

[vwbug72501]

+1

[grandpanystrom61]

I had just wrote down my plan of attack so I could be back on the road, and yes I will wait on new tires until I feel how these ride, they have flat spots in them from sitting to long at the neighbors house.

After getting the bushings and bearings replaced, torsion set proper, and all angles check out, than I finish out the above list.

Now I had replaced the OO9 distributor with the SVDA Ignitor ( Pentronix Flame Thrower ), was told with the Kardon carb's that this would help all run more smoother and even.

I did that 2 years ago I guess, any how all is set like in the installation video, after I get the cooler done and oil back in the engine I can set the timing, from what I have viewed and read I should be looking at 30 degrees @ 3000rpm's with the vacuum line disconnected.

A full day a head of me, so better get back to it, enjoy your day everyone.

Oh a question, I cleaned out the breather box, have 4 connections for hoses, one goes to left carb breather, a hose from each valve cover, and one hose from the oil fill tube vent,,,, but NO breather hose to the right carburetor breather base.

Why just the left side, or do I eliminate the left side and do not run hoses from the breather box to the carb breather base?? If it is a must that the both carb's should have hoses from the breather box to their breather, than could I put a T fitting in the hose from the oil filler tube and connect the right carb breather to it...... only have room on the breather box for 4 hose connectors......any thoughts would be helpful to me.

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Yep get the backend together and safe.

Tires....

Yes you want new tires for safety sake, but put it after you know the engine will not need major work.

Yep...is good to replace that 009. That is a long complex story. That distributor was originally for an industrial engine that ran full throttle 3750 rpm all the time. It has a straight timing advance and did not need any dynamic variables. A simple unit and it became popular with the drag racers. They are only worried about wide open and seldom have much vacuum to work with.

A street engine does not run wot all the time. The vacuum can give it some dynamic control. Timing has some load sensing adjustment happening. That makes things so much more drivable and pleasing.

Pertronics makes some good stuff. If someone had experience with that with carbs like yours then it is an excellent place to start. With a modified engine it will need non-stock timing dynamic control.

Yes on 30 degree total no vacuum. If it is higher compression and tight deck maybe a little less. If it is lower compression and loose deck more timing.

Vents... none of that is stock stuff you have there. A lot of folks do vent the valve covers. It seems to make sense as a normal upright engine is vented at the valve covers. But.....the valve covers are not the top of the boxer engine....so it is not ideal. So yes valve covers, oil filler, and it you have it the fuel pump block off plate. I do not like putting the oil vapor back into the carbs....so nothing to the air filters. Free air. Also on that vent can you want a low fitting that will drain back into the engine.

[grandpanystrom61]

Okay, I did understand the part about NO vent to carb breathers, only had the left, so a quick fix.

Are you suggesting buying new valve covers and oil extension tube so that they are no longer vented to the breather box,

or are you saying valve covers and extension tube vented to breather box ?

And yes there is the cover plate mounted where the fuel pump would go, are you saying there is a adapter plate one can buy that allows this to be a place for a vent hose ?

I know if I have valve covers with no vent hoses, well I will not see that white oil/water mock again. And seeing it really made me wonder about that vent to the carb., so glad that is going away.

I also have this new breather box that only has 3 hose ports on it, guess why I was asking, plus I see it, than I don't, made me wonder what is better, oh yeah no smog test here in my area, so no worries in that area.

have a good evening everyone.

[DeathBySnuSnu]

There is a huge amount of debate about the venting. Some several research done on it with all kinds of different conclusions. Even one fully documented test with supporting video that the 3-4 valve cover completely fills with oil. I have tried to reproduce that test and have never gotten that result.

So I am going to say that there can be a large amount of variables that effect how the venting can work.

I will give you my opinion on it all.

1) there should be near zero pressure to vent. The flat design with 180 degree counterparts does not displace air in and out of the block. The air does move around a lot but volume stays the same. The only thing in there to vent to the outside world is ring blow by/leakage. All rings leak a very small amount.

2) increased bore engines will leak more at the rings because there is more circumference to seal.

3) There is the potential for 3-4 valve cover to fill with oil. So do not vent that cover.

4) Mount the vent box as high as reasonably possible.

5) Put 1-2 valve cover and oil filler into the box.

6) Put a hose on the bottom of box as a drain back and hook to a fuel pump cover plate.

7) Free air vent the other side (opposite of hoses) of the box filter sponge/element.

Others will dissagree....is a hard subject.

[grandpanystrom61]

I had read about that, the left side filling full up with oil, I took it as it was because of no vent causing the oil to back up inside the valve cover. I will read over it again.

It is not that high, would say even with carb. height, so new longer mounting bracket or find a new location for it.

These box's are not air tight, both have a raised tap keeping the lid up, this allows a opening around the lid so that air can go in and out as needed

Now what side of valve cover had the most condensation, were clear water drained out when I popped it open, the LEFT side was the worst, so no venting of left valve cover, yet we vent the right side, is this to relief any back pressure so that oil drains and flows as designed ?

Note: I just inspected the fuel pump cover plate, it has a center port on the plate all threaded, all I have to do is remove it, drill thru the plate so the port is open, install a barbed nipple and that is done.

Breather box is currently mounted off the trans mount bolts on brackets, I looked and the highest point and available is on the rear of the body above the fan shroud. The bolts from the mounting of the temp tank are just perfect to attach brackets from so the breather box hangs up inside above everything, to high ??

This all lines up with a direct drop down to the fuel pump plate port, and than the other to vent hoses from the right side will route just fine to the box.

Now, I did not really have the room before, so I had mounted a bracket for the cooler off to the left side using the body's rear cross brace to hang it from. It is forward of the wheel area under the body.

Any how, if the breather box is moved, than I have the area to move the cooler to a more favorable spot, maybe as there is other stuff I have to work around, and of course truly see if it fits, but first need to move the breather box out of the way. I am sure the cooler will fit, just a matter of making the bracket so the cooler will sit were I need it to be.

This will look much cleaner and organized, and the cooler will be in front of the fan area so that air flow thru the cooler at idle will be present, and that is one purpose of the oil cooler, to help cool down the oil at idle when it is usually the hottest and some engines stall out from it, normally both relief valves open at this point so oil flows thru the cooler and sump until high pressure is reduced so springs close valves, concept is to keep the engine cool at idle so it does not over heat sitting in traffic or at a stop sign. Am I getting this right....

[DeathBySnuSnu]

There is very little oil pumped into the valve cover. A tiny timed pulse for the rocker shaft is all.

The article claimed rotational slinging (windage) from the crank pushed oil up the push rod tubes.

I don't believe it because I could not force it to happen. What I believe is that the oil pressure bypass.....as where the excess pressure is ejectected from the oil control piston and spring.....is directly at the opening of a push rod tube......if you use too large of an oil pump and it bypassed some huge amount.....I can see that pushing oil up the tubes.

I moved all that somewhere else in my block then redirected larger and full time oil up the push rods. Then squirters on the rockers and a baffle in the block. So now lots of oil into the covers and back down the tubes.

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Forgot to say...

Most of the high heat time is at highway cruise.

Sustained high rpm is what really heats up the oil.

Full throttle hard mountain uphill being the worst case scenario.

One thing to watch for when up gearing the trans....ie...5 speed...freeway flyer....is that you are attempting to lower your rpm at highway speeds.

But....you are also lowering the fan speed and reducing the cooling. And again you are light loaded open engine ect ect.....you will probably never notice anything like this. But if it was in a bus you would so the potential is there. You have the gauges so you can learn what it likes.

[grandpanystrom61]

Good morning to everyone, a sunny day spring day it is, hope all have one of these today.

That is a lot of work, I mean seeing the need for it, figuring out how to achieve it, than doing the work so it happens.

I do see what you are talking about with the control valve, I can see that happening, but I also see that stock pressure springs should be used, some say until the oil system is upgraded to a full flow system with larger oil cooler, than the rear spring, by #4, should be upgraded a bit to help keep a working oil pressure with in the upgraded engine.

That is interesting that you did that Rex, with all the other upgrades I can see the need for it, I bet you are proud of your skills and Trike.

I need to order my bearings today, I just need to find the site that has all that I need, like stock pressure relief valve springs, and a knowledgeable person who will know what bearings I need from the pic's I have so I get the correct ones.

I will get it done, just need to spend the time searching it out a bit more first before ordering stuff.

Enjoy the day, looks so nice outside.