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Thread: Tuning Question

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzHe View Post
    Okay, so I'm not sure what this means, but I went for a ride today, maybe 20 miles while waiting for my crank case vent kit to show. When I got back, no codes. Later, I ran to the store for some pellets to smoke a pork butt for Easter, but, I digress. When I got home, PO152 code was back. Very strange.

    If the O2 sensor is bad, wouldn't it be bad all the time? My experience is that electronics don't usually be intermittently bad.

    I'll find out tomorrow when the PV gets here ... Okay maybe not until Saturday or Sunday.
    O2 sensors ( especially the heated ones) are a funny animal

    They are constantly switching, ( toggling if you will) to monitor the changes in the exhaust

    We can thank the EPA for this

    Any way, it does not take much to foul a reading, this is why IMO once you clear a code it may come back sooner than later

    A wise man said think of it this way, it is akin to a fouled spark plug

    I hope this makes sense

    PS, there is ALWAYS an underlying reason for codes and for their return

    I suspect an oil fouling on the rear O2 sensor, that is where I would start AFTER you get the air cleaner a PV done JMO and good luck
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
    Current ride : 2021 FREEWHEELER M8, oldest ride 1960 FL

  2. #42
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    PV arrived today, I already had the tank and side cover off ... LOL ... not that I was anxious or anything. Ran the wires, put the tank on again and tried to mount the PV cradle. Sigh, the screws that came with it where too short for the mount I have. So, I used cable ties to mount it until I can get longer screws, tomorrow.

    I brought the PV into the house, checked for updates, and loaded the tune I had on the Tri to the PV (thanks Kevin). I took the PV out, hooked it up and loaded my tune. Went for a ride and all I can say is wow. Bike ran well, no coughing, no surging and after about 10 miles, no codes.

    I'm not sure if getting the crank case gasses or changing the tune, or both did the trick, but, I will monitor the codes. There was such a huge difference in the running of the bike, I think I'm good.

  3. #43
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    Thumbs up

    Good deal, I like a happy ending
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
    Current ride : 2021 FREEWHEELER M8, oldest ride 1960 FL

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Klarich View Post
    Good deal, I like a happy ending
    We will see ... but I think I'm good.

  5. #45
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    03/31/18 - I took the bike for a tuning run, and found the rear O2 sensor is in an open loop. I suspect the rear O2 sensor is bad. I’m getting no codes, so I suspect the sensor is bad, or, it could be a bad temp sensor. If the temp sensor is not allowing the rear cylinder

    Temp to “see” 129*, it will stray in the open loop mode. My plan is to set up so “Gaige’s on the engine temp sensors and a few other things and determine which it is.

    I will have Harley change out the O2 sensors if the rear is bad, I will have them do both.





    Hopefully, the PV will give me enough information to determine what is going on.





    The good news, no codes while it’s in the open mode.



    04-01-18 - I did another tuning run today. When the bike was cool, both front and rear O2 sensors where in the Open Loop mode. As the bike warmed up, the front one went to closed loop, much later, the rear also went to closed loop. All looked well for a time, then all of a sudden, the rear O2 sensor went into open loop mode and stayed there. No more tuning after that, just a NBR:O code on the data logger screen.

    I did set up some gauges on the PV, Engine Temp, Front O2 sensor voltage, Rear O2 sensor voltage.

    The temp came up to 198*, Air temp was like 62*. It was interesting, when the data logger showed the NBR:O code, I switched back to the gauges and found the front sensor voltage much lower then the rear. At times, like 3 times lower. For example, the front voltage would be like 0.36 and the rear would be like 1.21. I am kind of over my head here, Maybe Jack or Kevin will chime in.

    When I stopped the tuning run and exported my info, I had the same PO152 ECM code, not surprising. After exporting, I loaded the "learned" tune and ran for awhile, maybe 6 miles. When I got home, no ECM codes. I didn't look at the O2 sensor voltages during this time, duh, might have given me more info.

    I am at a point where I'm gonna check the plugs, clean and re gap if needed, and run it for a bit.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated .. LOL. My gut is that I have an intermittently bad rear O2 sensor. Might see if Don can help or maybe just get Harley to do it. Not sure I'm excited about taking off the exhaust and putting it back on. Besides, Colonoscopy on Friday ... I know, way more info than you need ... LOL.


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  7. #46
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    I will take a guess that the voltage output by the rear O2 is goofy as the fouling of the sensor has caused this problem

    IMO the sensor is bad

    The Engine temp looks good from what I see
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
    Current ride : 2021 FREEWHEELER M8, oldest ride 1960 FL

  8. #47
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    My thoughts exactly.

    Now to decide if I want to do it, or have Harley do it. A local indy quoted me like $30 less than Harley (difference in labor rate), so I'll go with Harley. Just not sure I wanna run the risk of breaking a head exhaust stud on my dime ... LOL.

  9. #48
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    This is a great read. I agree with Harley doing the work. Looking forward to the outcome. Jim
    US Army Retired, Command Sergeant Major

    No longer riding, memories, memories

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Klarich View Post
    I will take a guess that the voltage output by the rear O2 is goofy as the fouling of the sensor has caused this problem

    IMO the sensor is bad

    The Engine temp looks good from what I see
    So I went on a 60 or so mile ride this morning. Tried a few things to zero in on my thoughts.

    Step One:

    Loaded the original tune to see if the PO152 error returned. Rode foe about 3 miles. Bingo, PO152 and a little coughing/hesitation. Put the canned dyno jet tune for my config back in and rode for 3 miles, no codes. Did this back and forth a couple times with the same result each time. Conclusion, the original tune has one or more bad cells in the tune causing the O2 sensor to sense really rich conditions. This is kind of confirmed by the blackening end of the left exhaust pipe.

    Step two:

    Loaded the canned dyno jet tune and went for a longer ride, checking for codes every 5 miles or so. No codes and the bike ran great. While on this longer ride I monitored the front and rear o2 sensor voltage. The front cylinder sensor bounced all over the place from like 0.1 to 1.75 volts (closed loop adjustments). The rear sensor stayed relatively stable at 1.35 to 1.58 volts (open loop state). I went to Harley and even though the service department was closed, there were a few mechanics working to get jobs done. I talked to their best (highest trained) and he thinks Jack and I are dead on about the rear sensor being bad. His feeling is the heater is out on the sensor or the sensor is clogged. He says this is pretty much all that will cause it to stay in the open loop mode. Conclusion, change the rear o2 sensor.

    So I went to parts and checked on availability of the sensors. They had one each (front and rear) in stock, I bought them. They are being held until Harley can install them. I will always do both while the head pipe is off. For all the reasons I've stated before, I think it's worth the extra $$ to have them do it.

    I suspect the original tune caused an overly rich condition that caused the O2 sensor to fail. Or, the O2 sensor failed causing the overly rich condition, although I only get the fault code (PO152) when I use the original tune. Very weird. I'll keep you guys informed.

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzHe View Post
    So I went on a 60 or so mile ride this morning. Tried a few things to zero in on my thoughts.

    Step One:

    Loaded the original tune to see if the PO152 error returned. Rode foe about 3 miles. Bingo, PO152 and a little coughing/hesitation. Put the canned dyno jet tune for my config back in and rode for 3 miles, no codes. Did this back and forth a couple times with the same result each time. Conclusion, the original tune has one or more bad cells in the tune causing the O2 sensor to sense really rich conditions. This is kind of confirmed by the blackening end of the left exhaust pipe.

    Step two:

    Loaded the canned dyno jet tune and went for a longer ride, checking for codes every 5 miles or so. No codes and the bike ran great. While on this longer ride I monitored the front and rear o2 sensor voltage. The front cylinder sensor bounced all over the place from like 0.1 to 1.75 volts (closed loop adjustments). The rear sensor stayed relatively stable at 1.35 to 1.58 volts (open loop state). I went to Harley and even though the service department was closed, there were a few mechanics working to get jobs done. I talked to their best (highest trained) and he thinks Jack and I are dead on about the rear sensor being bad. His feeling is the heater is out on the sensor or the sensor is clogged. He says this is pretty much all that will cause it to stay in the open loop mode. Conclusion, change the rear o2 sensor.

    So I went to parts and checked on availability of the sensors. They had one each (front and rear) in stock, I bought them. They are being held until Harley can install them. I will always do both while the head pipe is off. For all the reasons I've stated before, I think it's worth the extra $$ to have them do it.

    I suspect the original tune caused an overly rich condition that caused the O2 sensor to fail. Or, the O2 sensor failed causing the overly rich condition, although I only get the fault code (PO152) when I use the original tune. Very weird. I'll keep you guys informed.
    Sounds like you, with the help of the PV, have done a good job on narrowing down what the issue is.

    I know there are benefits to EFI bikes, and I enjoy some of them myself...but I still prefer a carbed bike. But, if you need to have an EFI bike, the Power Vision is the bomb in making it easier to work with.

    Kevin
    www.DKCustom.com
    Call: 662-252-8828 Text: 662-420-4891
    Email: Support@DKCustomProducts.com


  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DK Custom Products View Post
    I know there are benefits to EFI bikes, and I enjoy some of them myself...but I still prefer a carbed bike. But, if you need to have an EFI bike, the Power Vision is the bomb in making it easier to work with.

    Kevin
    I too prefer a carbed bike ... it's the technology I grew up with. Having said that, i am rapidly learning that "knowing what the ECM knows" is the most valuable tool in my arsenal. And it's becoming readily apparent, the Power Vision is the tool that gets me there. It's easy to use and very powerful. I would caution others, that Win PV is a tad dangerous if you start changing things you don't understand. Don't ask how I know ... LOL.

    Thanks again to Kevin and Jack for their insight and help.

    Having said that ... LOL ... I am still playing.

    Early on, last Friday too be exact (seems like years ago), I loaded the Tri tune I had and started auto tuning to dial it in to this bike. After one tuning run, I loaded the exported tune to "do it again", the bike coughed and almost died. In hind sight, I think there rear O2 sensor was still going to closed loop, but, giving the PV bad data to tune against. I then went to a canned dyno jet tune for my config. This afternoon, I reloaded the tune I got from Kevin that was my Tri Tune .. apparently I didn't save it, but, Kevin did. I went on a 30 something mile ride. No fault codes.

    Here is some observations that I don't understand about the two tunes.

    Tune One, the dyno jet tune taken from their website for a 2014, wet head, with stage 1 breather, Vance and Hines Power Dual head pipe and Vance and Hines Hi Flow Slip ons. I will call the the canned tune.

    Tune Two, An auto tuned version of the dyno jet tune with stage 1 breather, fulsac no cat head pipe (closest I could find to stock de catted) and screaming eagle slip ons. I will call this my tune.

    Now for the observations, and I'm hoping someone can explain them (right now, I kind of feel like it's in my head)

    1) With my tune, the bike seams to generate power more effortlessly, this may just be because of observation 2.

    2) With my tune, there "seems" to be less engine noise so I tend to just hear the nice deep rumble from the exhaust (this alone seems to be enough for me to like the tune). Even the exhaust sounds quieter.

    3) With the canned tune, the rear o2 sensor reads voltages in the 200-300% range higher than the front o2 sensor and stays kind of steady. With my tune, the rear o2 sensor reads closer to 40-50% higher than the front and fluctuates way more, but, not at the rate of the front. The 40-50% higher seems to be consistent at all fluctuations, but I would need to start a data log and look at it while not riding to confirm that (I learned early on to not get enamored with the PV gauges, almost wrecked the Tri at 75 mph).

    It should be noted here, the only change I made to My Tune, was to change the speedo calibration pulses to 2153 (normally a two wheeler would be 2146, I think, but, my original tune had 2153 so I thought what the heck, maybe the tuner did this cal for this bike). In any event, there should be no "tuning difference".

    So. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on my observations. If you think it's all in my head, I'm okay with that, I've been called crazy before.

  13. #52
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    Gheesh... what happened to jump on, turn the key, put her in gear and GO!?

    So now ya have to be a rocket scientist to drive a motorcycle?

    Me-thinks I see a frustrated engine...eere.
    New course heading Mr. Sulu: ...2nd star to the right and straight on til morning...!!

    Scooter and Sassi....2 furrever.

  14. #53
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    I have a stock tune saved on thePV

    Kevin loaded a custom tune also

    The custom tune is way better IMO The gas mileage is better and the throttle by wire is better ( less lag)
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
    Current ride : 2021 FREEWHEELER M8, oldest ride 1960 FL

  15. #54
    13500+ Posts FuzzyWuzHe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paws View Post
    Gheesh... what happened to jump on, turn the key, put her in gear and GO!?

    So now ya have to be a rocket scientist to drive a motorcycle?

    Me-thinks I see a frustrated engine...eere.
    So basically I'm crazy ... I can live with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Klarich View Post
    I have a stock tune saved on thePV

    Kevin loaded a custom tune also

    The custom tune is way better IMO The gas mileage is better and the throttle by wire is better ( less lag)
    I get that one tune can be better than another, but, the less engine noise? Is that even possible? It's actually just less noise altogether.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzHe View Post
    So basically I'm crazy ... I can live with that.
    No, the unwritten message is that you LOVE to tinker with Harley engines trying to get the MOST out of them - therefore, you SHOULD have been a Harley Davidson ENGINEER for your life’s work.... where you could have put all this think-tank time and application into the engine BEFORE it went into production. But that’s ok... it fills the void while waiting on pool weather....tinkering does....Chief....
    New course heading Mr. Sulu: ...2nd star to the right and straight on til morning...!!

    Scooter and Sassi....2 furrever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzHe View Post
    I get that one tune can be better than another, but, the less engine noise? Is that even possible? It's actually just less noise altogether.
    I dunno, apples to oranges I guess

    More fuel less spark knock?
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
    Current ride : 2021 FREEWHEELER M8, oldest ride 1960 FL

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    Quote Originally Posted by paws View Post
    No, the unwritten message is that you LOVE to tinker with Harley engines trying to get the MOST out of them - therefore, you SHOULD have been a Harley Davidson ENGINEER for your life’s work.... where you could have put all this think-tank time and application into the engine BEFORE it went into production. But that’s ok... it fills the void while waiting on pool weather....tinkering does....Chief....
    Naw ... I could never work for Harley ... the EPA would of caused me to go postal (no offense to the hard working men and women of the USPS).

    As for the tinkering, I do enjoy it. I was once told that a Harley is like a classic car, you gotta be messing with it all the time. I disagree, a Harley is a fun platform to make the bike yours. No other bikes in the world can the average joe change as much, both, bling and performance from a catalog. We haven't even touched upon the aftermarket.

    Everyone here knows I have two Love's in the Motorcycle world. The Gold Wing and the Harley. Both are great bikes and both have their following (I might add a third in the trike arena, the BMW K1200LT, it's a great machine that would IMHO make a great trike, just too top heavy for me to be an all around good bike).

    I was once asked why I sold my Gold Wing and got a Harley. I was asked was the Harley faster? Nope. Was the Harley more comfortable? Nope. So why this person asked.

    I responded by saying when I go by a crowd of people on the Gold Wing, no body looks. It's just swoosh and I'm gone. When I go buy a crowd of people on the Harley, they all look. Now granted half of them are upset at the noise, the other half just love the rumble. I do love both bikes. It's just every time I get a Gold Wing, I get it set up like I like (pretty quick, they are pretty good to start), and I trade it for a Harley. I was once told that a Harley was just a down payment on accessories. So true, I like my bike to be a one of. And Harley makes that possible.

    As Paws knows, my mind goes wild on tangents. I have been known to go on a tirade to fix something and then, once it's fixed, I move on to another cause. No doubt that's how I used to be told to not attack wind miles (AKA Don Quixote). But, it's me. This time of year is the worst. I'm ready for pools but the pools are not ready for me ... LOL.

    The fixing the bike issue is a good wind mill to attack. If not for that ... who knows ... maybe immigration ... LOL ... NOT. When it comes to immigration, I make President Trump look like a new dealer.

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    I dunno about you but I am hard of hearing

    What I do know is once the air cleaner is changed the mechanical noise changes, to breath better changes a lot on any Harley

    Next, add more fuel your engine is cooler = a different tone

    I can feel the hum of my engine, I have never wanted a radio on my bikes

    The V Twin sound is music to me
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
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    Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. No physical changes to the engine or exhaust. The interesting thing is if I go back to the other tune, the noises return ... way strange.

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