Heat vs Performance

[Ronbo]

Has anyone ever seen Dyno data showing the effect of heat on performance on M8's? I know that the ECM retards the timing when the heads cross 250 degrees which is fairly common on trikes during the summer. I'd love to see what my stock engine is really doing once it reaches 270 and 290 degrees, and if it stays fairly flat after going into the retard mode or falls like a rock..... or maybe it's better not to know. I'm sure that's what HD is thinking.

[Jack Klarich]

http://www.dkcustomproducts.com/milw...-dk-m8-rpt.htm

Read here, this is my M8 being tested by Kevin

[Ronbo]

http://www.dkcustomproducts.com/milw...-dk-m8-rpt.htm

Read here, this is my M8 being tested by Kevin

Thanks Jack, it's really helpful to see hard data like this versus all the sales claims. Seems like Kevin's notes at the end speak to the heat vs performance issue I raised, would just like to see some ballpark numbers on how much loss I'm experiencing due to heat and how much 10 or 20 degrees makes once you cross 250. Wish I had a Kevin in my neighborhood! Thanks again, Ron

[Fearless]

Ron my only addition to the thread is heat KILLS motors plain and simple. My Twin cam has not seen 250 all riding season we have only 2,700+ this year though. Includes City and urban rides as well as highway. Ride safe Fred

[Jack Klarich]

Ron my only addition to the thread is heat KILLS motors plain and simple. My Twin cam has not seen 250 all riding season we have only 2,700+ this year though. Includes City and urban rides as well as highway. Ride safe Fred

Agree Fred

HD will face a problem soon with engine size getting bigger. They will push the air/ oil cooled engines out and will be able to tighten up the liquid cooled engines

I am a purist and do not want to face it tho it will surely happen

[DK Custom Products]

Thanks Jack, it's really helpful to see hard data like this versus all the sales claims. Seems like Kevin's notes at the end speak to the heat vs performance issue I raised, would just like to see some ballpark numbers on how much loss I'm experiencing due to heat and how much 10 or 20 degrees makes once you cross 250. Wish I had a Kevin in my neighborhood! Thanks again, Ron

I am traveling right now, so can't look. But we may have some dyno charts showing how much the power drops off when crossing into the "too hot" area.

If I recall correctly, on the M8, it is somewhere around a 10% drop in power right when it crosses 250, and then gets up to as much as a 25% drop when it crosses 270.

The drop in power is significant...definitely something that will make a very noticeable difference when cruising. But more importantly, it is very significantly reducing engine life.

See another report HERE.

When I return I will look and see if we have any dyno charts of running above 250...even if we do, it will not be much, doing dyno pulls at those temps is just as destructive as riding at those temps.

Kevin

[Ronbo]

I am traveling right now, so can't look. But we may have some dyno charts showing how much the power drops off when crossing into the "too hot" area.

If I recall correctly, on the M8, it is somewhere around a 10% drop in power right when it crosses 250, and then gets up to as much as a 25% drop when it crosses 270.

The drop in power is significant...definitely something that will make a very noticeable difference when cruising. But more importantly, it is very significantly reducing engine life.

See another report HERE.

When I return I will look and see if we have any dyno charts of running above 250...even if we do, it will not be much, doing dyno pulls at those temps is just as destructive as riding at those temps.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, this is the kind of info I've been looking for. Your link on cooling down engines is filled with solid, doable ideas based on real data that I can understand and implement to fit my specific situation ... M8 freewheeler in hot ol Texas. (almost all open road riding). I'm going to proceed with the tank lift and removing the left rear heat shield now and will go for the external breather when I do my stage 1-2. I've been using an infrared temp gauge to kind of compare the temp changes of the heads/cylinders with different riding conditions but it sounds like that really isn't giving me any kind of real data, even just for comparisons? Thanks again, great info! Ron

[Jack Klarich]

Thanks Kevin, this is the kind of info I've been looking for. Your link on cooling down engines is filled with solid, doable ideas based on real data that I can understand and implement to fit my specific situation ... M8 freewheeler in hot ol Texas. (almost all open road riding). I'm going to proceed with the tank lift and removing the left rear heat shield now and will go for the external breather when I do my stage 1-2. I've been using an infrared temp gauge to kind of compare the temp changes of the heads/cylinders with different riding conditions but it sounds like that really isn't giving me any kind of real data, even just for comparisons? Thanks again, great info! Ron

Check your oil temp after your next ride

Use a good meat type thermometer

Record or remember the number

Most say oil starts losing its ability to lube good past 240 degrees give or take 10 degrees

[Ronbo]

Check your oil temp after your next ride

Use a good meat type thermometer

Record or remember the number

Most say oil starts losing its ability to lube good past 240 degrees give or take 10 degrees

Great idea, thanks! Took an evening ride at 88 degrees and my front cylinder measured 275 and rear 303. Will be interesting to see what the oil temp really is and track it as I make my changes.

[Ronbo]

Great idea, thanks! Took an evening ride at 88 degrees and my front cylinder measured 275 and rear 303. Will be interesting to see what the oil temp really is and track it as I make my changes.

Ok, I took a highway trip at 70 mph on a 80 degree cloudy day. (I ride a 107 freewheeler solo, 155 lbs. My IR thermometer read 245 front cyl and 295 rear. I measured my oil with an electronic meat thermometer and the oil was 220. I reversed the trip and got the same reading. Next week I took the same trip when it was 90 out and sun all day. The front measured 275 and the rear 330. The oil went up to 236 (16 degrees at 90 vs 80). I assume a bit of this would be that the roads were also much hotter being in the sun all day versus my first overcast test. What I get from this is that when I'm riding when it's over 90 degrees my oil is pushing around 240 to 250 (in the tank). And when I doing a long haul fully loaded here in Texas summer that my oil is cooking at 280. IS THAT REALLY BAD??

I going to remove my left side heat shield as suggested by DK and see what difference that might make at least on bringing the rear cylinder temp down. Then I'm going to do the 1.5 inch tank lift by DK and see what that does. Not real scientific but it might be useful info for a lot of us.

Any other thoughts or comments? Thanks, Ron

[ShapeShifter]

Ok, I took a highway trip at 70 mph on a 80 degree cloudy day. (I ride a 107 freewheeler solo, 155 lbs. My IR thermometer read 245 front cyl and 295 rear. I measured my oil with an electronic meat thermometer and the oil was 220. I reversed the trip and got the same reading. Next week I took the same trip when it was 90 out and sun all day. The front measured 275 and the rear 330. The oil went up to 236 (16 degrees at 90 vs 80). I assume a bit of this would be that the roads were also much hotter being in the sun all day versus my first overcast test. What I get from this is that when I'm riding when it's over 90 degrees my oil is pushing around 240 to 250 (in the tank). And when I doing a long haul fully loaded here in Texas summer that my oil is cooking at 280. IS THAT REALLY BAD??

I going to remove my left side heat shield as suggested by DK and see what difference that might make at least on bringing the rear cylinder temp down. Then I'm going to do the 1.5 inch tank lift by DK and see what that does. Not real scientific but it might be useful info for a lot of us.

Any other thoughts or comments? Thanks, Ron

If you don't have them, then it's good time to include a pair of DK's Cooling Deflector Wings. Don't forget the Deluxe Tank Lift Kit Option to lift the rear of tank.

[Freewheeling Ron]

Ron, the tank lift and air deflectors will definitely help, but IMO it’s not going to give the heat reduction necessary to get the oil and head temps down to an acceptable range. Love Jugs and an oil cooler should. My head temps never got above 255 front and 275 rear pulling a trailer in July here in north Texas. That’s on a 103 that’s not water cooled and with just the Love Jugs, prior to the installation of an auxiliary oil cooler, although it did have the less effective factory oil cooler.

[MDO]

Ok, I took a highway trip at 70 mph on a 80 degree cloudy day. (I ride a 107 freewheeler solo, 155 lbs. My IR thermometer read 245 front cyl and 295 rear. I measured my oil with an electronic meat thermometer and the oil was 220. I reversed the trip and got the same reading. Next week I took the same trip when it was 90 out and sun all day. The front measured 275 and the rear 330. The oil went up to 236 (16 degrees at 90 vs 80). I assume a bit of this would be that the roads were also much hotter being in the sun all day versus my first overcast test. What I get from this is that when I'm riding when it's over 90 degrees my oil is pushing around 240 to 250 (in the tank). And when I doing a long haul fully loaded here in Texas summer that my oil is cooking at 280. IS THAT REALLY BAD??

I going to remove my left side heat shield as suggested by DK and see what difference that might make at least on bringing the rear cylinder temp down. Then I'm going to do the 1.5 inch tank lift by DK and see what that does. Not real scientific but it might be useful info for a lot of us.

Any other thoughts or comments? Thanks, Ron

When I did the 1.5" deluxe tank lift on my 17 FW, it dropped my temps 15-20°. Last summer, my switching to Lucas high performance full synthetic 20W 50 dropped my oil temperatures 10-15°

After 2,200 miles of use, I had the oil tested & it was in great condition.

If I was in your hot climate, I might consider a 60 weight oil for the real hot months.

I would definitely go with the Love Jugs.

[Ronbo]

When I did the 1.5" deluxe tank lift on my 17 FW, it dropped my temps 15-20°. Last summer, my switching to Lucas high performance full synthetic 20W 50 dropped my oil temperatures 10-15°

After 2,200 miles of use, I had the oil tested & it was in great condition.

If I was in your hot climate, I might consider a 60 weight oil for the real hot months.

Thanks, that was just the motivation I needed to go ahead and spend the $50 on the tank lift. I'm running the synthetic but will think about the 60 weight when I do my spring oil change. Thanks again for your input. Ron

[Ronbo]

Ron, the tank lift and air deflectors will definitely help, but IMO it’s not going to give the heat reduction necessary to get the oil and head temps down to an acceptable range. Love Jugs and an oil cooler should. My head temps never got above 255 front and 275 rear pulling a trailer in July here in north Texas. That’s on a 103 that’s not water cooled and with just the Love Jugs, prior to the installation of an auxiliary oil cooler, although it did have the less effective factory oil cooler.

I'm kind of thinking the same thing, but want to see what I can do with the lest amount of $$ and time first. But I know an oil cooler would give me more piece of mind when I load it down and ride on the interstate all day at 70+. What did you install? Thanks,

[DK Custom Products]

Thanks Kevin, this is the kind of info I've been looking for. Your link on cooling down engines is filled with solid, doable ideas based on real data that I can understand and implement to fit my specific situation ... M8 freewheeler in hot ol Texas. (almost all open road riding). I'm going to proceed with the tank lift and removing the left rear heat shield now and will go for the external breather when I do my stage 1-2. I've been using an infrared temp gauge to kind of compare the temp changes of the heads/cylinders with different riding conditions but it sounds like that really isn't giving me any kind of real data, even just for comparisons? Thanks again, great info! Ron

After getting back I spoke with Devin about the dyno pulls...he reminded me that we only started one pull and the power was way off, so we aborted and looked at the temperature and saw that it had crossed 250*. We then got the big dyno fans on it and cooled it down and we did not do anymore runs with it over 250*.

That kind of heat drastically reduces engine life, and we avoid it...even though we could get one on there and purposely run it up...we are not going to do that to any of our own engines, and certainly not to a Customers engine.

In the early days, when we did not know better, we did run them hotter on some Twin Cams...and we've seen other dyno operators run TC's and M8's hot, but after seeing what that heat does to the inside of an engine we avoid it like the plague.

Kevin

[DK Custom Products]

Ok, I took a highway trip at 70 mph on a 80 degree cloudy day. (I ride a 107 freewheeler solo, 155 lbs. My IR thermometer read 245 front cyl and 295 rear. I measured my oil with an electronic meat thermometer and the oil was 220. I reversed the trip and got the same reading. Next week I took the same trip when it was 90 out and sun all day. The front measured 275 and the rear 330. The oil went up to 236 (16 degrees at 90 vs 80). I assume a bit of this would be that the roads were also much hotter being in the sun all day versus my first overcast test. What I get from this is that when I'm riding when it's over 90 degrees my oil is pushing around 240 to 250 (in the tank). And when I doing a long haul fully loaded here in Texas summer that my oil is cooking at 280. IS THAT REALLY BAD??

I going to remove my left side heat shield as suggested by DK and see what difference that might make at least on bringing the rear cylinder temp down. Then I'm going to do the 1.5 inch tank lift by DK and see what that does. Not real scientific but it might be useful info for a lot of us.

Any other thoughts or comments? Thanks, Ron

Yeah, the viscosity modifiers in oil, even good oils like Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, start breaking down around 240*, and the oil really starts taking a dump up around 260*.

The oil companies are legally able to advertise that they can "withstand heat up to 3xx*" because government regulations do not define oil breakdown until an oil loses 10% of it's weight over a 1 hour period at x*.

So an oil that is "legally" breaking down at 3xx*, is really starting to lose lubrication quality much lower than that, around in the 250* area, with major acceleration around 270*.

This is different than the metal in the engine losing it's shape in the 270* area. BUT, if the oil is 270*, then the metal is even hotter....so you don't ever want to see oil up in that 270*, not just because it is bad for the oil, but because that means the metal in the engine is hotter and is being permanently damaged.

I'm kind of thinking the same thing, but want to see what I can do with the lest amount of $$ and time first. But I know an oil cooler would give me more piece of mind when I load it down and ride on the interstate all day at 70+. What did you install? Thanks,

There is no one solution that will get the temps down in the safe range...210-230...just a combination. But the best you can do for an oil cooler is a Jagg auxiliary cooler with an oil filter relocation. Since you already have a factory oil cooler, you do not need to spend any $ on an oil cooler adapter, just the actual cooler.

You can see one HERE.

I would also recommend, sooner or later, an oil filter relo, which you can see HERE. But you do not need everything in this kit, since you already have a cooler. You can call or email the shop and tell them what you have and they can put together what you need at a reduced price.

I like (and follow) the idea of installing one thing at a time, that way I can see what benefit each item is providing...but until I got the temps down, to not ever crossing the 250 mark, in the most extreme circumstances, I would be very careful in my riding, thus preserving my engine from unnecessary damage.

Kevin

[Ronbo]

After getting back I spoke with Devin about the dyno pulls...he reminded me that we only started one pull and the power was way off, so we aborted and looked at the temperature and saw that it had crossed 250*. We then got the big dyno fans on it and cooled it down and we did not do anymore runs with it over 250*.

That kind of heat drastically reduces engine life, and we avoid it...even though we could get one on there and purposely run it up...we are not going to do that to any of our own engines, and certainly not to a Customers engine.

In the early days, when we did not know better, we did run them hotter on some Twin Cams...and we've seen other dyno operators run TC's and M8's hot, but after seeing what that heat does to the inside of an engine we avoid it like the plague.

Kevin

Hi Kevin, I really appreciate the follow up. I think your response answers my core question on heat vs performance in spades! This 'journey' started with me wanting to get more out of my M8 with a stage II but now I realize that since I do a lot 90+ degree riding I need to make sure I'm not losing it all to heat as well as shorting the engine life. The good news is we're done with the triple digit temperatures here so I've got til next summer to work on getting a cooler running engine and then go to a stage II.

ps... it finally dawned on me that you and Devin are the company that have been purchasing the 44 mag bolts from me for the past 6 years (innovative motorcycle accessories / IMA products).

Thanks again,

Ron

[DK Custom Products]

Hi Kevin, I really appreciate the follow up. I think your response answers my core question on heat vs performance in spades! This 'journey' started with me wanting to get more out of my M8 with a stage II but now I realize that since I do a lot 90+ degree riding I need to make sure I'm not losing it all to heat as well as shorting the engine life. The good news is we're done with the triple digit temperatures here so I've got til next summer to work on getting a cooler running engine and then go to a stage II.

ps... it finally dawned on me that you and Devin are the company that have been purchasing the 44 mag bolts from me for the past 6 years (innovative motorcycle accessories / IMA products).

Thanks again,

Ron

Hi Ron,

Yes, a True Stage I, combined with keeping the temps in the ideal range, will outperform a typical Stage II with "normal" heat 10 times out of 10.

LINK to Overview of differences in Stage I's

LINK to How to get more power out of a Stage I than a typical Stage II

WOW!!!! Small world! I had no idea either. Just talked to Lela (she's the one that orders the 44 mags from you for us) and she said doing business with you was easy and good. (can't say that about all suppliers)

Thanks!

Kevin