having problem with a motortrike i can't seem to track down.

[3W-lonerider]

Been a crazy few days (who am I kidding, few weeks!)...

I have a VERY specific question on this... Did you replace the heim joints or the ladder bars? Also, when you locked the jam nuts against the ladder bar did you use loc-tite or just tighten them down? Also as Lee mentioned, how much air pressure in your air bags?

to answer your questions. i replaced the heim joints with the trike kit having 100,000 miles on it.

new heim joints have 30,000 on them. at the same time i replace all bolts with new grade 8, and used double tooth washers plus locktite to lock them down. always had an issue with the bolts holding the heims to the rear working loose. the double tooth washers took care of that issue.

i had an issue before that the right side ladder bar was running 1/4 inch behind the left one. so i solved that.

took the trike down the road at over 100 mph and had no wiggle at all.

now after a couple of weeks its back into it again. its kinda like a reverse tank slapper.

at over 60 mph this thing will osolate 6 to 8 inches side to side. to the point if you don't slow down real quick its gonna go over.

i have been under it in the last couple of days and rechecked all bolts, all are tight.

check the distance from the rear to the front bolt holding the ladder bar in place and it reads 23 and 1/4 both sides.

checked for rear being centered, it is centered.

as far as the tires. i run 24 in the rear tires.

as far as the bags. with just me on i run them at 10 psi. with the wife on i run 23 psi.

now keep in mind these are not stock motortrike bags these are the bigger bags, but this problem existed before bag replacement.

this thing has always had a wiggle anything over 60. but fixing the ladder bar issue of the wheels running stagered cured it for awhile.

it has the new updated drive shaft. as far as the jamb nuts. yes they are lock tighted and iv;e check all of them and they are tight.

and another note. this thing will not wiggle at all with the wife and i both on.

seems it only wiggles when there no weight on the rear if that makes any sense.

i know how you feel about crazy busy.

our company just bought a bunch of used equipment. and iv'e had to order parts for every machine i pull in. but they think i shoulda had them rent ready 1/2 hour after they showed up. LOL

 

[trike tech]

Are you 100% certain that the jam nuts on the FRONT of the ladder bars are tight? Do you see any reddish colored dust where the heim joint threads into the front of the ladder bar? If the answer to both of these are no.............

You're going to think I've lost my mind here & I don't have a clue what I'm even talking about here, but humor me a little bit.

When's the last time the steering head bearing torque was checked to see if they're loose? I know it's a complete pain to check the steering head bearing torque properly, but I've seen first hand loose head bearings cause things like you're seeing.



Many years ago (feels like a lifetime ago actually) had a dealer with a solid axle GL1500 with a "mystery wobble" much like yours in their shop. Customer had them put new shocks on it, new air bags, & told them to put all new ladder bars with new heim joints on it so "everything was new"; wobble still present under certain circumstances.

Wife & I were on "vacation" one weekend and was in their general area so stopped by to "check it out". Steering head bearings were loose & had been long enough that the races were chamfered from the bearings. $45 set of new upper/lower steering head bearings & the problem was gone. Customer had chased the "problem" for almost a year & had told the dealer what to replace to the tune of well over $1,000 in parts & who knows how much labor. All for what ended up being something in the front end that was transferring & felt like a "sway" in the back end so that's where they'd spent their time searching.

 

[trike tech]

Also,

Based on the grade 8 comment, I assume the old bolts were grade 5? If that's the case it sounds like your trike may have 4 lug wheels also (right around the time MT went from 4 lug to 5 lug wheels on their conversions they also changed to grade 8 bolts also. Technically a little "before my time" so I don't know the exact timeline & which officially came first & wouldn't hurt to verify just to establish timeline.

 

[3W-lonerider]

Yes it has the 7.5 ford rear which is 4 lug. I can easily check the stem bearings. Because i have a 6 degree raked tree that the bolt goes up threw the bottom i will jack it up tonight and check with a fish scale. How many pound it takes to move the front. As far as the front heims. There is no rust and the jamb nuts are as tight as i can get them. But thank you for you time and I'll get back here when everything is checked and double checked it might be a. Couple of days till i can test it. Supposed to rain for the next couple of days here.

 

[trike tech]

If you don't have it handy, may not hurt to check the install instructions for your rake kit brand to verify the head bearing torque, it can vary by mfg & design.

If your front heim joints are tight & no signs of "powder" around them I seriously doubt the heims are "shifting" on the ladder bar.

One more thing you could check out "just in case".. Stand beside your trike @ the center of the tire on one side or the other. Grab the grab bar, seat, backrest & push the fender with your thigh & use your hand to pull it back slightly to create a "rocking" motion side to side on your trike. Listen carefully and see if you hear a "click click click" sound when doing this. If you do the heim joints on the panhard bar (above rear end) have slack between the ball & outer shoulder of the heim. This can cause a sway as well that's different when riding two up because of the change in load on the trike.

Don't hold your breath, but if one of the older solid axle kits we have here shows the symptom I'll try to get a quick video to upload so you can see what I'm talking about.

 

[3W-lonerider]

If you don't have it handy, may not hurt to check the install instructions for your rake kit brand to verify the head bearing torque, it can vary by mfg & design.

If your front heim joints are tight & no signs of "powder" around them I seriously doubt the heims are "shifting" on the ladder bar.

One more thing you could check out "just in case".. Stand beside your trike @ the center of the tire on one side or the other. Grab the grab bar, seat, backrest & push the fender with your thigh & use your hand to pull it back slightly to create a "rocking" motion side to side on your trike. Listen carefully and see if you hear a "click click click" sound when doing this. If you do the heim joints on the panhard bar (above rear end) have slack between the ball & outer shoulder of the heim. This can cause a sway as well that's different when riding two up because of the change in load on the trike.

Don't hold your breath, but if one of the older solid axle kits we have here shows the symptom I'll try to get a quick video to upload so you can see what I'm talking about.

i will check the panhard bar. i was just under there checking that a week ago but i'll check it again. no need for a video i know exactly what your referring to. i just done what you suggested as far as shifting the trike back and forth and no noise or movement could be detected. iv'e been a mechanic for over 40 years so finding my way around things is not new.

but you referring to the steering head bearings, i never thought of that, because when this thing starts osolating it feels like the handle bars are not moving. but i will definitely check it.

 

[trike tech]

Panhard bar is missed a LOT of times so figured I should mention it "just in case".

A solid axle MT kit really is pretty "basic" overall. If the heim joints are tight & no slack between the ball & shoulder of the joint itself & no wear on the threads there's really nothing else to "move" in that area. There's always shocks, air pressure, etc (but you've already addressed those things too); so short of a failing major component (which should be noticeable) that doesn't leave anything else on the trike conversion side.

Don't get me wrong, steering head bearings aren't a "common" issue, but I've seen it more than once which makes it common enough to be worth mentioning in my book.

 

[3W-lonerider]

Panhard bar is missed a LOT of times so figured I should mention it "just in case".

A solid axle MT kit really is pretty "basic" overall. If the heim joints are tight & no slack between the ball & shoulder of the joint itself & no wear on the threads there's really nothing else to "move" in that area. There's always shocks, air pressure, etc (but you've already addressed those things too); so short of a failing major component (which should be noticeable) that doesn't leave anything else on the trike conversion side.

Don't get me wrong, steering head bearings aren't a "common" issue, but I've seen it more than once which makes it common enough to be worth mentioning in my book.

ok. jacked the front of the trike up. and checked the pull on the bars. if i bumped them they would rotate either direction and bottom out with 2 bounces. i figure it isn't loose as far as grabbing the forks or the bars and trying to move them front to rear and no noticeable movement when taking the load off the forks, but being able to rotate by almost just blowing on the handle bars would make them wonder and search for center as your going down the road. so i tightened them to have 7# of pull on the handgrip before it will move. haven't ridden it yet but will get back to you in a couple of days to see if it solved the issue.

i can see where a wondering front end would cause the rear end to osolate just seemed like the front was staying put, if you know what i mean

 

[3W-lonerider]

finally got to take it out for a spin, ran it up to 90 on a straight stretch of good road and no wiggle.

got on some back roads that weren't as smooth and had a little wiggle, nothing like it was, this was just a noticeable wiggle compared to the osolation i had before.

so i tightened the neck bearings up to 10# of pull and took it for another ride on the same roads.

all is good. takes alot more effort to steer this thing than it did before but i can deal with that.

thank you everyone for the help. i would have never thought it would have been neck bearings. but it makes sense now. does'nt take much movement on the front to start the osolation at the back. seems the faster you go the worse it got.

 

[ultrafxr]

Glad you got it sorted out. Enjoy.

 

[rvance]

Sorry

To butt in here, but if you are making it take more pull to turn the handlebars by tightening the head bearing adjustment nuts, then you are creating tension by distorting the steel balls and races. This is NOT how you make a damper. It can and will cause a catastrophic failure of the steering head with probably terrible results. Just take it to a pro, please.

 

[3W-lonerider]

sorry but iv'e been turning wrenches for 45 years. this isn't my first rodeo with neck bearings. just did'nt realize neck bearing would create a rear end wiggle to this magnatude. this thing did'nt shimmy it was an osolation to the point it was like riding a carnival ride. when i tightened the head bearings it was good at 7lb pull. but then after a week or 2 went right back into the osolating rear end.

came to the conclusion that the right from heim came loose alot when it was first built because everything was in a bind. i think the threads in that right front ladder bar was loose and allowing the heim to move even though the jamb nut was tight.

either that or the head bearings were bad, they did have over 100,000 miles on them. but i do appreciate the response. but at this point i don't need to worry about it.

the beginning of aug. the alternator cable shorted out and took alot of stuff out with it. including the wiring harness and all the electrical. there were parts i could no longer get so the trike was totalled. new trike is being built now. should have it before the end of the year.

new trike is being built now.

 

[CrystalPistol]

To butt in here, but if you are making it take more pull to turn the handlebars by tightening the head bearing adjustment nuts, then you are creating tension by distorting the steel balls and races. This is NOT how you make a damper. It can and will cause a catastrophic failure of the steering head with probably terrible results. Just take it to a pro, please.

Tapered roller bearings will tolerate some tightening as they spread the load across the faces of the races. Ball bearings will develop flats on some balls and dents in the races creating a situation where the fork wants to point only certain ways, and a steady fight ensues.

I missed it if 3w-lonerider ever said whether he has a kit that included stem tapered roller bearings or OEM like ball bearings in his 1800.

 

[rvance]

Sorry again

Tapered roller bearings will tolerate some tightening as they spread the load across the faces of the races. Ball bearings will develop flats on some balls and dents in the races creating a situation where the fork wants to point only certain ways, and a steady fight ensues.

I missed it if 3w-lonerider ever said whether he has a kit that included stem tapered roller bearings or OEM like ball bearings in his 1800.

But I have been turning wrenches for over 50 years and I know a really bad idea when I hear it. Sorry to hear about the trike being totaled, but I am happy to hear that it didn't involve any injuries to your person.

 

[3W-lonerider]

Tapered roller bearings will tolerate some tightening as they spread the load across the faces of the races. Ball bearings will develop flats on some balls and dents in the races creating a situation where the fork wants to point only certain ways, and a steady fight ensues.

I missed it if 3w-lonerider ever said whether he has a kit that included stem tapered roller bearings or OEM like ball bearings in his 1800.

the trike had tapered bearings.7lb pull felt good if i went to 10lb pull it was like you said i was fighting the handlebars.

anything less than 7lb pull and the front felt loose and sloppy if that makes sense.

and no i wasn't trying to create a steering dampner using the bearing torque. but if you woulda rode this thing at 60 mph it woulda scared the living crap out of you. it would not do it if the wife was on at any speed. only when there was no weight in the back seat. which lead me to believe it almost had to be in the rear of the trike. thats what i was focusing on.

 

[CrystalPistol]

the trike had tapered bearings.7lb pull felt good if i went to 10lb pull it was like you said i was fighting the handlebars.

anything less than 7lb pull and the front felt loose and sloppy if that makes sense.

and no i wasn't trying to create a steering dampner using the bearing torque. but if you woulda rode this thing at 60 mph it woulda scared the living crap out of you. it would not do it if the wife was on at any speed. only when there was no weight in the back seat. which lead me to believe it almost had to be in the rear of the trike. thats what i was focusing on.

My only question was stem bearings. All the 1200 & 1500 versions of Gold Wings came factory with tapered roller bearings but 1800s got ball type bearings for a lighter feel, but loads are concentrated in points, not across the length of a roller, and the balls & races will not tolerate excess torque. Rake kits usually come with tapered roller bearings and most of the time, they recommend near about double torque value of stem nut. Mine with EZ Steer is … or was about 30 ft lbs. where as Honda says 15 I think. Mine did have tapered roller bearings OEM being a 1500, but EZ Steer kit came with new ones with races.

 

[CrystalPistol]

But I have been turning wrenches for over 50 years and I know a really bad idea when I hear it. Sorry to hear about the trike being totaled, but I am happy to hear that it didn't involve any injuries to your person.

:Shrug: Wasn't me or mine …:xzqxz:… but Thank You.

As to a "really bad idea", the tapered roller stem bearings don't see the speed, the constant revolutions, the loads, or the heat … as do those used in wheel bearings. Unless they are involved in a really messed up wreck, they'll never se a full revolution, just movement back and forth across a very narrow range. Swing arm bearings see similar use.