Harsh ride, leaking seals & anti-dive

[Muleskinner]

I apologize first for the length of this post, but wanted to make sure that all the info was there.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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I have an 06 GL1800, non-ABS, with a new Hannigan kit, 6 degree rake with a 2” riser. We bought the trike right after it had been kitted at 19,400 miles. Within 1,000 miles we noticed that the left seal (left only) was leaking to the point that we would have drips on the garage floor. I took it back to the dealer that did the kit install and he changed both seals (but not the bushings). The fork oil was very black and appeared to have been in there for quite some time.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Within about 200 miles I started noticing just a light oil ring on both the left fork, but not to the point of dripping. I continued to ride it for a couple thousand miles, but the leak did not get better or worse. I took it back in and he again changed the left seal (but again not the bushings). This time we both very closely inspected the tube and could find no scratches or pitting.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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I took the trike back home but within another 1,000 or so miles, the left seal started leaking again.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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The other complaint I had with this trike is that any little bump, such as a 1/2” high road patch, really transfers to the front handlebars. Any larger bumps would seem to really hammer hard. The trike still has the OEM springs.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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I’ve been doing a lot of reading on this and other Honda forums and have come to the conclusion that <br /><br /><br /><br />
(1) the cause of my seal problems and harsh handling is likely a stuck anti-dive valve and;<br /><br /><br /><br />
(2) I don’t really need the anti-dive valve since the bike has been triked and most of the braking is now done with the rear wheels.<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />
Today I just got done disabling the anti-dive with a bored out nickel.<br /><br /><br />
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As soon as it warms up a little more, I’ll take her for a test ride to see how she does now on the bumps.<br /><br />
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However, when I had the AD apart I firmly depressed the front brake and noticed that the plunger did not move at all.<br />
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However, when I depressed the rear brake the plunger came out about ¼”.

Does this indicate that I may have a problem in the secondary master cylinder? If so, would a complete flushing of the brake fluid take care of the problem? I already bled a little out and it appeared to be clean with only a light amber tint. If I have disabled the anti-dive, do I really need to worry about the plunger not moving with the front brake? I know the bleed-thru valve (I think that’s what it’s called) is working as when I lightly apply the rear brake only at low speeds, I can hear the front brake working as well. <br /><br /><br /><br />
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I am planning on taking the trike back in again for new OEM seals <b><u>and bushings</u> </b>on both forks and am considering changing out the OEM springs for either Progressive or Traxxion at the same time. The price difference between the 2 springs is not much so is there any consensus about which ones are better?

[Stephen]

I have a 06 GL1800, non-ABS as well, AD disabled quite some time ago. From what I've read over the years I've drawn the conclusion that the AD causes the seal problems. I know my AD was stuck, disabled it right away. No seal problems with mine. I'm not totally sure but by disabling the AD you probably fixed your problem. I'm installing the Roadsmith conversion on mine at this time and they (smart people) disable the linked brakes as well.

[Muleskinner]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Stephen</strong>
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<div class="message">I have a 06 GL1800, non-ABS as well, AD disabled quite some time ago. From what I've read over the years I've drawn the conclusion that the AD causes the seal problems. I know my AD was stuck, disabled it right away. No seal problems with mine. I'm not totally sure but by disabling the AD you probably fixed your problem. I'm installing the Roadsmith conversion on mine at this time and they (smart people) disable the linked brakes as well.</div>

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</div>Thanks for the input. Are you still running the OEM springs?

[Stephen]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Muleskinner</strong>
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<div class="message">Thanks for the input. Are you still running the OEM springs?</div>

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</div>Yeap, but I weigh in at 180, don't usually carry a passenger and I travel lite.

[tfdeputydawg]

I have an 06 Wing/2010Hannigan
1.Disabled the ADV @ time of conversion
2.Retained the stock fork springs.
3.Ride 2-up 99% of the time.
No leaking seals, rides fine, nothing harsh.
Not sure why you would put in stiffer springs(Progressive or Traxxon)just yet.
Make sure you put the correct amount of fluid in and the proper wt. Ride it w/ADV disabled a while. Yielding to Zook's experience, I have removed my comment on the 6deg rake.Let us know how things go along the way so we can learn with you.

[Muleskinner]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>tfdeputydawg</strong>
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<div class="message">I have an 06 Wing/2010Hannigan<br />
1.Disabled the ADV @ time of conversion<br />
2.Retained the stock fork springs.<br />
3.Ride 2-up 99% of the time.<br />
No leaking seals, rides fine, nothing harsh.<br />
Not sure why you would put in stiffer springs(Progressive or Traxxon)just yet.<br />
Make sure you put the correct amount of fluid in and the proper wt. Ride it w/ADV disabled a while. If it pops a seal again, I suspect the 6deg rake is to much! I'm running a 4 1/2 deg rake with no problems so far.<br />
Let us know how things go along the way so we can learn with you.</div>

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</div>Did you leave the linked brakes hooked up when you disabled the AD? Stephen said that Roadsmith disabled them as well.

[Konrad]

As I also have an 06 GL1800 and have recently ordered the Roadsmith kit, this is a very interesting discussion.<br />
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But I need some help here:<br />
1. What is Anti-Dive and why should I disable it?<br />
2. Why should I have linked brakes disabled?<br />
3. Is disabling the linked brakes an automatic part of the Roadsmith installation?<br />
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Thanks in advance.

[kj5ix]

Did you leave the linked brakes hooked up when you disabled the AD? Stephen said that Roadsmith disabled them as well.

Roadsmith and Champion disable the link system. The others do not.

[Papa Zook]

Just a few observations...Im not a big fan of AD or linked brakes and I have no problem depressing a pedal and a brake handle at the same time....so why? Honda's service manual doesn't recommend changing the fork bushings before 50K miles. You say you may want to do it next time around, but I seriously doubt they have enough wear to warrant a change and certainly not enough to cause a leak. A 6 degree rake VS a 4.5 degree rake will not contribute to your problem. Just my 2 cents. Have a good one.

[Muleskinner]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Bazooka</strong>
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<div class="message">Just a few observations...Im not a big fan of AD or linked brakes and I have no problem depressing a pedal and a brake handle at the same time....so why? Honda's service manual doesn't recommend changing the fork bushings before 50K miles. You say you may want to do it next time around, but I seriously doubt they have enough wear to warrant a change and certainly not enough to cause a leak. A 6 degree rake VS a 4.5 degree rake will not contribute to your problem. Just my 2 cents. Have a good one. <img src="images/smilies/thumbup.gif" border="0" alt="" title="" class="inlineimg" /></div>

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</div>Thanks and I hope you're correct. I'll take her out this afternoon for a test ride after it warms up a little. I also agree with you that I don't see the benefit of linked brakes as I also use the front and rear at the same times.

[Stephen]

I for one am glad Roadsmith disables the linked brakes cause I feel the linked system is a pain in the butt to bleed. It was a piece a cake to bleed the back brakes on the roadsmith once the linked system was removed. I should have a easier time bleeding the front brakes now as well. The linked system is probably just an over engineered brake system. JMT. You can have it that way but you don't need it.

[Papa Zook]

I agree with you on the over engineered thing Steve...The GoldWing 1800 is an awesome machine with very little noticeable change in design or appearance from 2001 to present. I think some changes like the Anti Dive and linked brake system were more a means for Honda to increase the sales price and not a real benefit to the owner. If a system is causing more problems than it is solving why have it??

[Muleskinner]

I have an 06 Wing/2010Hannigan
1.Disabled the ADV @ time of conversion
2.Retained the stock fork springs.
3.Ride 2-up 99% of the time.
No leaking seals, rides fine, nothing harsh.
Not sure why you would put in stiffer springs(Progressive or Traxxon)just yet.
Make sure you put the correct amount of fluid in and the proper wt. Ride it w/ADV disabled a while. Yielding to Zook's experience, I have removed my comment on the 6deg rake.Let us know how things go along the way so we can learn with you.

Not sure what Zook said, but glad to see the change as I really love the 6 degree rake. When I bought it, the dealer also had on 06 1800 with Hannigan kit and a 4.5 degree rake. Rode both and liked the 6 degree much more.

[Papa Zook]

Not trying to be a know-it-all cause after 6 years in the business Im still learning, but I just said I didnt think any part of your problem was due to a 6 degree rake VS a 4.5 degree rake. I like the 4.5 best because thats what I am most used to but thats just me...the 6 is surely a lighter touch. Also I wasn't trying to talk you out of the bushing change. If it gives you piece of mind then by all means do it while your doing the seal change..no better time.

[Papa Zook]

Interested to hear an update after your ride this afternoon Muleskinner. BTW hows your DYI Roadsmith coming Steve?

[Muleskinner]

I just said I didnt think any part of your problem was due to a 6 degree rake VS a 4.5 degree rake. I like the 4.5 best because thats what I am most used to but thats just me...the 6 is surely a lighter touch. Also I wasn't trying to talk you out of the bushing change. If it gives you piece of mind then by all means do it while your doing the seal change..no better time.

No offense taken at all. Always glad to hear all points of view. Not sure myself any more about the need for the bushing change. I learned from another source about how to check the bushing clearance to decide if they need changed or "tightened". I'll have my peace of mind when a set of seals last more that 1,000 miles. Now that I have disabled the AD, hopefully I will get it.

[Muleskinner]

Interested to hear an update after your ride this afternoon Muleskinner. BTW hows your DYI Roadsmith coming Steve?

May have to wait till tomorrow as it's still on 32 here. Should get to 40 tomorrow. I'll let you know.

[kj5ix]

I’ve been doing a lot of reading on this and other Honda forums and have come to the conclusion that

(1) the cause of my seal problems and harsh handling is likely a stuck anti-dive valve and;
(2) I don’t really need the anti-dive valve since the bike has been triked and most of the braking is now done with the rear wheels.

No 1 is more than likely correct. The AD plunger is notorious for sticking, thus causing a blockage, and making the front rough ridding. A stuck plunger is most likely the cause of the left seal going out long before its time, but when the seal is changed and the upper tube isn’t surfaced i.e.: sanded lightly with 1000 wet/dry there could be something not readily visible in the motion area of the tube that can and will take out a new seal. Also look extremely close in that area ( about 5 inches up, and down )for any vertical scratch or gouge. Often a scratch is undetectable by eye, but can be felt with a finger nail. A dried on bug part can take a new seal out.

No 2 The AD is activated in two ways. By the rear peddle which is linked to the front in a 60/40 through a proportional valve, and by the secondary break cylinder which is on the left fork, and is activated when the fork starts downward during breaking, usually via the front lever. The front break by it self does not activate the AD.

However, when I had the AD apart I firmly depressed the front brake and noticed that the plunger did not move at all. However, when I depressed the rear brake the plunger came out about ¼”. Does this indicate that I may have a problem in the secondary master cylinder? If so, would a complete flushing of the brake fluid take care of the problem?

See Above: and flushing the system will not unstick a plunger. You did that when you separated it and moved the rear peddle with no resistance on the plunger. The upper plunger that you saw move out is 90% of the time the culprit, but the plunger system is a two part system. The bottom plunger that you more than likely didn't even look at, could very well be stuck down also. Press down in the small hole with a drift punch that will fit in the center, or something that you can get good pressure on to see if the plunger moves down, and then back up. Both are dry metal to metal with no lube, and either can stick. If the bottom is stuck, just tap it with a hammer to unstick it. Tap not Whack.

I know the bleed-thru valve (I think that’s what it’s called) is working as when I lightly apply the rear brake only at low speeds, I can hear the front brake working as well.

That is the linked system working, front leaver = 60 front 40 back. Back rear peddle = 60 rear 40 front.
To really work on and understand the BIKE SIDE you need to get a Service Manual for the GL1800. The diagrams are very helpful at times like this, where words cant describe it well.

The other complaint I had with this trike is that any little bump, such as a 1/2” high road patch, really transfers to the front handlebars. Any larger bumps would seem to really hammer hard. The trike still has the OEM springs.

Now this is the hard part of the equation to explain gracefully. Looking at your photo in your album. The front end is bottoming out as you ride. The front end looks almost at its upper limit just sitting there. The combined weight of you and the SO, along with the bike has the Wimpy OEM springs almost completely compressed, which in effect gives it a near rigid front end, and anything you run over will be felt in the handle bars. Your front fork springs need to be replaced with a higher rate spring simply put. Progressive will work for a while, but will degrade over a short time. Traxxion will last for the life of the Trike. When you call Traxxion they will ask a few questions, Trike make, how do you ride; 1 up, 2up, then your weight. They then give you the spring for these conditions. The only downside would be if some one like me were to ride it, it would ride like a buck board; I am so light in the ass that I have to carry a large rock when the wind blows to keep from being blown away.

[Papa Zook]

Well there ya go..nobody says it better than George.

[Muleskinner]

kj5ix
What a great response. :wtg:
This is the first time that anyone has mentioned checking the travel of the lower plunger in the AD and providing an easy way to check it. I'll do that today while I'm waiting for it to warm up.

I assume that even if it is stuck down, or even partly so, that since I have already disabled the AD with the plugged nickel, I won't have to worry about the lower plunger again as it will not again be depressed.

Haven't you heard that photographs always make you look larger than you really are? My wife is a petite 95 lbs and a lean mean 190. We just each carry an additional 100 lbs of ballast under our clothes to give us stability in heavy winds. :innocent:

I'm assuming (actually hoping) that you are referring to the Traxxion spring kit and not the AK-20. I can handle the $125 for the springs, but hate to have to cough up the price for the full kit.