2006 VTX 1800 Motortrike rearend R&R - Fix Broken Welds for Ladder Bar Mount -

[rhino 2]

That's a common injury on hotrods that have ladder bars locating the rearend. It makes the rear axle like a big sway bar. You can get away with it for awhile on a light car but it's designed to fail and it will.

Yep......I Snapped one on my 68 Charger at NY National Drag strip Long Gallon...Clean brake at the weld....

[trike tech]

I've welded a fair bit of cast to cast … and to steel using nickel rods, using short welds and long pausing between to let heat spread slowly. The earlier mention of E7014 was what I use strictly on steel, not castings.

Not yet done steel straps or "tabs" to cast centers, but have done axle tubes to centers. Lots of good info on U-tube & welder's forums as well.

That's a lot of cracking there, to be a light weight trike as these are relative to steel strength. Must have had a life down a bumpy road. I just think much of it was fast work. Not to cause worry, but this would be a good time to carefully inspect the frame near the take off points for the rear suspension?

I wasn't around when this trike would have been built (that body design hasn't been used on the VTX since 2007). Given your trike has 5 lug wheels, coil overs and air bags it would have been converted some time between 2005-2007 though.

BUT, I can tell you that MT doesn't weld to the cast part of the housing on the 7.5 Ford diff's. Too hard to do it & have seen far too many "nightmares" from welds on cast ripping the casting apart for who knows how many variables & factors. The strapping/webbing on the structure is a "bridge" to locate & connect the left & right side of the housing structure & SHOULD only be welded to the axle tubes (much like a truss brace for Jeeps are done). They tied into the ears with a steel "bushing" on the rear ends that did have the "ears" for additional bracing, but once again should not be actually welded to any cast material.

I know I said it previously but will echo it again, the single biggest contributing factor for structure damage is improperly set up/adjusted ladder bars. I don't know if you paid attention to this specific aspect when you started disassembly, but with the structure broken away from the rear end was there a "gap" between the ears that the ladder bars attach to & the rest of the structure (there usually is). That gap is because the suspension was in a bind & once the structure broke the ladder bars are now "resting" in a neutral state because the pressure that was being applied by the welded parts is no longer present.

The attachment I posted earlier will allow you to check the suspension and adjust once you have the rear end structure fixed to ensure you don't see this sort of issue again. I can't stress this enough either, if you repair your housing and or replace it and do not address the suspension setup you WILL have another failure as a result. It's not a matter of if, but when.

[trike tech]

Yep......I Snapped one on my 68 Charger at NY National Drag strip Long Gallon...Clean brake at the weld....

I'll bet that made for an interesting "ride"!

[rhino 2]

I'll bet that made for an interesting "ride"!

I was a long time ago...68, If i remember there was a little lean on the left and a lot of clunking...Took them off i had 90 10 shocks up front and 50 50 in the rear and thats probably why they snapped [Weight Transfer].........70 was my last time at the drag strip It was starting to get $$ expensive $$ to stay competitive ......

[Volkemon]

That's a common injury on hotrods that have ladder bars locating the rearend. It makes the rear axle like a big sway bar. You can get away with it for awhile on a light car but it's designed to fail and it will.

Maybe I am misunderstanding... you are saying that this setup is a known problem, and is DESIGNED to fail?!? And Will?!?

I cant be the only one with this setup on the forum. There are people riding this way and KNOW they will have failure. Surely I must be totally misunderstanding your message.

[Volkemon]

Thanks for the reply Richard! I am putting my responses nestled in your reply to keep the 'flow' easier to follow.

I wasn't around when this trike would have been built (that body design hasn't been used on the VTX since 2007). Given your trike has 5 lug wheels, coil overs and air bags it would have been converted some time between 2005-2007 though.

Rear tires were dated 24th week of 2006, so I imagine 2006 is close. Does the factory release any info if I supply the numbers found around the trike? Rear end stamped #, fiberglass pieces have tape with numbers, etc.

BUT, I can tell you that MT doesn't weld to the cast part of the housing on the 7.5 Ford diff's. Too hard to do it & have seen far too many "nightmares" from welds on cast ripping the casting apart for who knows how many variables & factors. The strapping/webbing on the structure is a "bridge" to locate & connect the left & right side of the housing structure & SHOULD only be welded to the axle tubes (much like a truss brace for Jeeps are done). They tied into the ears with a steel "bushing" on the rear ends that did have the "ears" for additional bracing, but once again should not be actually welded to any cast material.



I stated before that I understand why MT does not weld to the cast, and you echo it - ""Too hard to do it "". Pre/post heat, etc. The off road crowd has and does weld to the center section with great success. It is just a LOT more work than 'hit it with the MIG'.

I know I said it previously but will echo it again, the single biggest contributing factor for structure damage is improperly set up/adjusted ladder bars. I don't know if you paid attention to this specific aspect when you started disassembly, but with the structure broken away from the rear end was there a "gap" between the ears that the ladder bars attach to & the rest of the structure (there usually is). That gap is because the suspension was in a bind & once the structure broke the ladder bars are now "resting" in a neutral state because the pressure that was being applied by the welded parts is no longer present.

I agree. That was one of the main elements that I did look for, and no distortion was found. To get the initial pics with the gap showing, I had a 24" prybar pushing the pieces apart. With weight on the axle, or with the axle dangling, there was negligible if any gap. I was specifically looking to see if there was any distortion of the axle tube, ladder bars, etc which would prohibit their use. I was VERY pleased to see none. All bolts were removed without binding which I also took as a good sign.

I had to cut the angle bridging over the center casting to release the broken piece. There is a picture captioned with ""Here is a back view of the top plate, you can see the stress crack to the right."" that was taken BEFORE I cut that, so the parts are all laying in the 'relaxed position' on the axle, ladder bars off. This one -

https://www.triketalk.com/forum/atta...id=81220&stc=1

VERY little displacement. The displacement that is there is to be expected, the remaining piece that was still connected bent when the lower plate tore. The hairline cracks with no movement otherwise were 'good' to see in that respect.

There was a little displacement of the middle member tear, as seen in the pics, but I think that was a last corner 'holding on' when the lower member tore. The tearing of the lower brace was nice, clean and not distorted. The angular movement of the forces transferred to that plate from the upper plates finally breaking completely just overcame the tensile strength of the steel.

After seeing the sh*t weld in the left strap, I am leaning more towards a weld sequence not being followed locking in stress, or more likely poor weld quality during initial assembly. I sincerely WISH and am actively trying to find any other fault to blame the failure on. I want this to be a safe ride for my Wife and I. She has givin me 'Carte Blanche' to get another axle, or do whatever is required to make this a safe ride. Well, as safe as getting on the highways with a bike is anyway, right? I will not ride if I am concerned with mechanical issues. Testing that with the brakes not working well was foolish enough, and unusual for me. I was excited about the trike, and much more reasoned now.

The attachment I posted earlier will allow you to check the suspension and adjust once you have the rear end structure fixed to ensure you don't see this sort of issue again. I can't stress this enough either, if you repair your housing and or replace it and do not address the suspension setup you WILL have another failure as a result. It's not a matter of if, but when.



Thanks again for that. I will be following it 'to a tittle'. But once again, I have not seen any evidence that this was precipitated by improper suspension adjustments. I would welcome finding some, I prefer that explanation. I have only seen several indicators that improper construction gradually failed over time, until the forces overcame the remaining weldment.

Thanks again for the response. We agree on practically all points.

I am still waiting to get some time with 'The Welding Professor', hard to rush retirees. Especially military officers!! He has seen hundreds, if not thousands of welds destructively tested.

[CrystalPistol]

Maybe I am misunderstanding... you are saying that this setup is a known problem, and is DESIGNED to fail?!? And Will?!?

He was referring to ladder bars on cars (much heavier) with wheels where uneven surfaces call for twisting, or acceleration with the twisting force of several hundreds of ft lbs torque & high horse power cause the car to twist in reaction … but a trike is only three points on the road and no where near the torque or horse power of the drag cars so there is no twisting. The trike will readily lean or not as defined by the rear wheels in our cases.

I can tell you that MT doesn't weld to the cast part of the housing on the 7.5 Ford diff's.

You quoted me by mistake maybe?

I see the steel tower thing (for the centering bar attachment) across the top of V's center, figured it was welded at bar mount points? Looks like they built a steel cradle to hold the rear in place as well as to bind the tubes together (in addition to the plug welds at the center section). They have to control trike roll and torque reactions to braking & acceleration and side loads like in turns and allow for bumps. The older type welded stamped steel housings of the 8" Ford rears where the hogshead dropped out the front likely were easier to build around/with, but in time I guess the supply just dried up.

The only welding of steel to cast I've done involving rear axle housings was around the tube's entry into the cast center, to supplement the plug welds in car rears used in a couple cars much as others described, it's never failed in my experience.

What really amazes me here is this picture. How does all that steel (welded to tubes on either side of pumpkin) get that separated. Looking close at "cracks too, almost makes one think of hitting a gas pump island. Why I said check alignment of axle housing tubes for straightness. I brightened it for clarity.

[trike tech]

Probably a lack of coffee this morning, but alot of folks are under the impression that the structure is welded to the cast part of the housing also. MT did use some 8" Ford diff's early on when it first became MT in the 90's as I understand it but switched to the 7.5 shortly after (way beyond my pay grade to know why ).

Back in 06 I was still so new here I didn't have a clue about anything trike related & was a "newbie", but yes, there is essentially a "jig" that the pinion slides onto to "locate" the diff, the plates/structure are then attached to the jig so they are located & welded out accordingly.

[Sidecarbill]

My misunderstanding. Sorry.

[CrystalPistol]

Probably a lack of coffee this morning, but alot of folks are under the impression that the structure is welded to the cast part of the housing also. MT did use some 8" Ford diff's early on when it first became MT in the 90's as I understand it but switched to the 7.5 shortly after (way beyond my pay grade to know why ).

Besides likely being some heavier, the 8" rear was fazed out in the '80s and it's duties taken over by the 7.5" integral type rears. I'm sure the ready supply in salvage yards dried up. CSC also used them, maybe some others as well? I know that they could weld easily to almost any place on a 8" rear except the hogshead (cast), but I wouldn't expect them to weld on that lump of cast iron on the 7.5.

Back in 06 I was still so new here I didn't have a clue about anything trike related & was a "newbie", but yes, there is essentially a "jig" that the pinion slides onto to "locate" the diff, the plates/structure are then attached to the jig so they are located & welded out accordingly.

Oh I can see in the pictures. They welded it up including the tubes tying them together too as suspension pick up points were created. They rely on the rear axle to level the trike through the ladder bars still (I think it OK as long as the heim joints are maintained), but yeah, they did avoid welding to the cast section.

I gotta have my coffee in AM too.

[Volkemon]

OK, everybody coffee'd up?

Talked with Richard at Motortrike yesterday afternoon, and things are looking SO much brighter.

I am going to rip apart the axle I have, until it is just a shell.

Motortrike is going to remove the old weldments, prep the area, and jig-weld the axle again.

Factory Perfect. No joking, I had to reassure myself I was not dreaming.

And for a very reasonable price.

SO... got the axle in at work, getting ready to drain and gut it. Got a pretty pallet, and I am gonna make a shipping box on it. There will be an axle, cookies and maybe more in it.

This is a WELCOME change of events. I bought this used, MT owes me nothing. They are going above and beyond to make things right.

Will keep this thread current as things progress. AWESOME development.

[Volkemon]

How does all that steel (welded to tubes on either side of pumpkin) get that separated. Looking close at "cracks too, almost makes one think of hitting a gas pump island. Why I said check alignment of axle housing tubes for straightness. I brightened it for clarity.

In that picture, I have cut the angle that connects the pieces side-to-side. You can see I overlapped the pieces in the upper right, that is what allows the huge gap between the pieces. It was NOT like that before the cut. The gap was tiny, I had to use a prybar to force it out a bit to show it better in the early pics.

I am 99% sure this was not broken in one event. The rust in the broken weld, all the cracks... this has been flexing and getting worse for a while. We had been hearing noises, but I thought it was just body parts hitting frame.

I am wondering if the problem was the cause for the sale. Previous owner had a vibration under acceleration. Getting worse, they bring it to a 'mechanic' to fix. This 'mechanic' opens up the rear end, puts the new seals in and other unknown work, then puts the driveshaft in misindexed. Never sees the cracks in the dark oily underbody area.

Owner now has a bike that vibrates worse than before, gives up, and gets rid of it to the 'horse trader' I got it from. No test drive, because I would readily feel the bad vibration at ~45 or so. Then I fixed the driveshaft, getting rid of most of the vibration....except the flexing problem that started it all.

Things flexed even more, with the sticky tires and better brakes. Cracks grew.

Then this Florida Yahoo speedshifts it into third, and it finally broke. Thanks to The Lord that we were not killed.

So yeah, there were no big gaps after the break, only after I cut the piece out.

[3W-lonerider]

i'm so happy that your sending it to motortrike to be put back in a jig and fixed properly. with everything in alignment. not doubting your mechanical skills in no way shape or form. but being put in a jig at least you know everything, is going to be straight.

i know if i tried fixing that and put everything back togather and still had a vibration i would be questioning, did i get everything aligned right.

cudos for motortrike stepping up and cutting you a break. no pun intended.

[Volkemon]

i'm so happy that your sending it to motortrike to be put back in a jig and fixed properly. with everything in alignment. not doubting your mechanical skills in no way shape or form. but being put in a jig at least you know everything, is going to be straight.

i know if i tried fixing that and put everything back togather and still had a vibration i would be questioning, did i get everything aligned right.

cudos for motortrike stepping up and cutting you a break. no pun intended.

You hit the nail on the head. I dont care WHO you are, trying to do that job accurately without a jig would be 50% luck 50% skill. I knew this. Thats a 'problem' with knowing how to do things right.... you know when you are not doing it that way.

HUGE show of responsibility by Motor Trike. They are going above and beyond 'who paid who' and simply making their work right and me whole. Not a common trait for many businesses today.

So... instead of strapping it to a pallet, I treated this axle like it was something my life depended on. I have a bit better sense of that now..

Started by making the inner supports. The axle end cradles were easy - use a hole saw in a 2x4, then cut the hole in half to get two perfect cradles. Notch as needed for clearance. Did the pinion support with a jigsaw. Ryobi really has its sh*t together on the new tools. Yellow pine is tough, but the cordless jigsaw didnt even slow down.



************************************************** *************

Added the rear supports, base and starting on front bracing.



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Adding the rest of the front bracing. The lag bolts, 2x4's and OSB sheet wood are all recycled from hurricane shutter take-downs at work. Hate throwing stuff away, as my garage will witness!!



************************************************** ************

The final inner brace. All it needs is sides and top!



************************************************** *****

Now the box is left with all the other 'toys' under the light of a full moon to gather good vibes. If Fr. Louis had not been busy, holy water and a blessing would be there also.

Goes in the next day for paint and labels.



************************************************** *****

Painted and ready. I was gonna put 'UP' on the end, it turned into a shout-out to the delivery folks.

Label is laminated, glued and stapled to the box. It provides a good spot for the UPS shipping sticker also, as OSB does not hold sticky stuff well.

For return, the lid is simply flipped over and bolted on. There is a return label printed and prepaid on the other side.

$195 shipping each way, insured to $3500. Cost me $80 to insure it, not a bad deal in my book. If *ANYTHING* happens, and the axle is destroyed, I will have a new one.



**************************************************

And off to the UPS warehouse. We have a major distribution hub nearby, very handy.

I got the ladder bars painted, looking sharp. I am going to paint the axle and driveshaft the same color.



Again. HUGE thanks to Motortrike.

[Volkemon]

And to the folks at Motortrike... its an easy unpack. Some directions are written inside.

1) Take off the 8 top bolts, remove lid.

2) take off the 4 red-headed bolts on the end caps, 2 each side. Remove top brace.

3) Remove two wingnuts inside.

4) lift the axle out! I tried it, its a little snug but does not bind.

Assemble in reverse order, making sure the return shipping label is on top!

The UPS clerk did screw up a bit. I was originally going to ship it back to my workplace. However, the clerk used my licence address for the return address. So it is coming to the house. No biggie, so dont 'panic' if anyone notices the label addy does not match paperwork. Either way I will get it. Our regular UPS guy, Jay, will make sure it is left in a good place.

Oh... I think I may have accidentally dropped some beverages inside........ Enjoy!

[bikerbillone]

Wow, meticulous with your machine, kudos to you, hope MotorTrike does a great job for you. Good PR for them.

[3W-lonerider]

Nice looking crate. And well supported.

[Warlock]

Nicely packaged up. Hoping for a quick turn around for you. Living in the south like we do our riding season is pretty well all year long.

David

[CrystalPistol]

Nice work , but as level as it is, your "UP" arrows appear to have it shipping upside down as related to it's intended use now, but right side up related to Ford's plan, not that the axle housing cares. If it get's destroyed in that box, it'll be a bad wreck with fire and all I think. A lot of guys, me too maybe, would have secured it to a pallet (blocks/bolts) and 7-12 layer shrink wrapped it. Your box is more hand truck friendly.



Ladder bars look great too, a yellow driveshaftand black rear axle with green inspection plate will look great too. Really.

Me? … mine's all black (some is paint & some is grease thrown off the U-joint I guess) & dusty.

[Volkemon]

Nice looking crate. And well supported.

Thank You!

Wow, meticulous with your machine, kudos to you, hope MotorTrike does a great job for you. Good PR for them.

Never cared more for a bike than now I am 'one of two of a kind' as Joe Jackson said. (Happy Loving Couples)

When I realized that ...AT BEST... that disaster could have been ....

I was a driven man.

Motor Trike will get all the promotion I can give. I still have that stencil.

I begged them for help.........resolution in WORLD QUALITY SERVICE.

I would be remiss in letting others not know.

Nicely packaged up. Hoping for a quick turn around for you. Living in the south like we do our riding season is pretty well all year long.

David

HELL yes Cuz. Grew up in Vermont and was in Army 10th MTN INF. But born in FLA and back to live again. HOOOOOOAH!

Nice work , but as level as it is, your "UP" arrows appear to have it shipping upside down as related to it's intended use now, but right side up related to Ford's plan, not that the axle housing cares. If it get's destroyed in that box, it'll be a bad wreck with fire and all I think. A lot of guys, me too maybe, would have secured it to a pallet (blocks/bolts) and 7-12 layer shrink wrapped it. Your box is more hand truck friendly.



Ladder bars look great too, a yellow driveshaftand black rear axle with green inspection plate will look great too. Really.

Me? … mine's all black (some is paint & some is grease thrown off the U-joint I guess) & dusty.

I got the picture of your car... its called a harlequin paint job. ( LOL...I am VOLKEMON Dude...)

BUT.....



Working on the exhaust now. MORE shiny stuff. Check my main thread.