2006 VTX 1800 Motortrike rearend R&R - Fix Broken Welds for Ladder Bar Mount -

[Volkemon]

Hi There!

This is a sub-topic thread about my adventures with a 2006 Honda VTX 1800 Motortrike conversion. Got a good deal on it, and am paying for that now.

Main thread here - https://www.triketalk.com/forum/thre...e-my-next-ride

Last ride, hitting 3rd gear, the bike started to crab right. I let off, kept my cool and went home carefully.

Jacked it up, and found the axle moved fore and aft on the right side. Removed the upper cover to see this -



The bottom crack is FRESH.



So time to pull the rear axle.

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Removed the body.



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Rear axle on the jack.



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Couple issues..

Someone installed LED lighting, the 4blk1r ribbon cable. Pushed through from the other side. When doing so, they got the wire harness pushed closer to the rear cylinder exhaust. Will inspect carefully, re-locate, and maybe make a small heat shield. Looks OK on first glance.



and wanted to remove the ladder bars, but hit a stopper.

This is the cover that was glued on, the pivot 'fasteners' are behind it.



Looks like there is a nut ground flush, and locked with a chisel.

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This is the other side showing the ladder bar end. Is that a carriage bolt end?!? -



So... I am SO hoping that the carriage bolt is just stopping the side to side movement, and there is a separate sleeve that threads on from the other side that the bar pivots on.

I am REALLY hoping the main pivot point for the ladder bars is NOT soft carriage bolts...

So I can maybe grind off the small nut, and slide the remains of the bolt out? Then unscrew a pivot and allow the drag link to be removed...

And on the left side. I have no idea how this comes off, might be glued like the other side. Little help?



OK, on to part 2... dissecting the remains and assigning blame.

[Volkemon]

Alrighty. Got the rear axle on the jack for pics.

First step is to cut the last support holding the broken part on. Then we can inspect welds.



I cut the angle iron in the upper left to release the piece. The top, middle and bottom breaks are visible, and note the stress crack in the middle plate.

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Here is a back view of the top plate, you can see the stress crack to the right.



That crack follows the weld on this side. If you look at the upper right, you can see a zig-zag crack that comes from the raised part on top and angles down to the vertical weld area.



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It appears that the top vertical weld was the initial failure. This is the part still on the axle. You can see the center has been fretting back and forth, and has rust in it.



this is the mating facing on the 'loose' piece. You can see incomplete penetration down the whole center. The top and bottom spot welds had better penetration.



The rust in the center indicates there was a gap, and for some time. This is the most corroded and worn area. The bottom spot weld maybe held on until the final break, judging by the clean break pattern.

Hard to say why, but this weld was not up to the task. It probably looked fine, but was incompletely penetrated.

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More coming, but Mrs V just put fresh chili on the table...

[Volkemon]

Here is the middle plate, the side still attached to the axle. Tough angle, best shot I could get. The right side is the axle tube, and the corner was partially welded to it. The part to the left of the 'fork' is shiny from rubbing.



Mating face to the picture above. The axle tube would be to the left, you can see where the 'fork' tore out of it. To the right, you can see the shiny areas that had been rubbing. The lack of rust there makes me think this is relatively new, and probably been growing during all my testing. The final break was the top/left area that is a dull grey.



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This is the lower plate, the last to break. This is the 'free' piece, Axle tube would be to the left. The stepped area to the left is very sloped, like a beach leading to the ocean. All fresh break, no rubbing.



Here is the mating face, still attached to the axle. Best shot I could get. The shine is from the lighting, the face is as dull as the above picture. You can see excellent root to the weld, and the metal yielded uniformly from that point. After this broke, the bike started to crab to the right.



Well, thats it for now. Going to review the service manual to see if I can get an answer on how the front pivot attachment is removed.

Will also check here frequently to see if aid has arrived.

Plan 'A' is to see about a replacement axle housing. I can transfer the 'guts', and wanted to put new bearings in. Might be costly, but well worth it for time saved and quality assurance.

Plan 'B' is to rebuild the current axle. Cut off some of the damaged material, make new plates, and do my best to keep things aligned enough that link adjustment will allow fine tuning. With all the damage, and NOT having a jig....... I prefer plan A.

Lets see what Monday brings....

[Volkemon]

Ok, last Sunday report.

The left side bolt cover was threaded on. with a spacer that looks like chromed pipe. The smaller glued on cap from the right side is lower right.



Got the rear axle to clean and New muffler in truck to cut on tomoz.

About the new muffler...

Got a VTX1800 C stock system for $60 off craigslist.



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I like the look of the stock 1800C 2-1 over the 2 pipe Cobra in the front.

I am going to keep the dual tailpipes. Cutting the stock aka 'New' muffler to make a transition piece.



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Cobra system it came with - 2 pipes and dont look too close underneath. Less than 90 days and this is the 'old' pic.



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and covered for the night. Momma V's ride inside next to it. Deep winter cold here. 40's!

[3W-lonerider]

that carriage bolt your looking at is just to keep the heim on the pivot point.

when i replaced mine i just used regular carriage bolts, 1/4 inch and cut off the excess sticking out threw the nut.

do not take the big nut off, that is the pivot for the heim.

also don't crank on those carriage bolts, just tighten them like a normal 1/4 inch bolt.

[CrystalPistol]

Somewhere I have seen the use of carriage bolts with the MT ladder bars, but it's been years ago? (I just now saw explanation above)

If me, rather than swapping guts, I would think easier to cut, fit new,vee, weld, grind,reweld, & gusset in places too. But it's not me.

Yes, that is a Ford 7.5" integral rear axle flipped over, in case you still had any doubts? It's not your work I know, but the photos (I copied & blew up some) sure make it look like a sloppy fab job on MT's part. I guess they figured no one would see it?

Following …. good luck!

Like the new pipeset too!

[Volkemon]

that carriage bolt your looking at is just to keep the heim on the pivot point.

when i replaced mine i just used regular carriage bolts, 1/4 inch and cut off the excess sticking out threw the nut.

do not take the big nut off, that is the pivot for the heim.

also don't crank on those carriage bolts, just tighten them like a normal 1/4 inch bolt.

THANK YOU!

Yes indeed- I went ahead and took off the carriage bolts and removed the ladder bars. Got them in the parts washer here at work as I type.

I was SO happy to see they were just retainers, not the pivots.

Any clue on where to find the threaded 'dress cap' like on the left side?

[Volkemon]

If me, rather than swapping guts, I would think easier to cut, fit new,vee, weld, grind,reweld, & gusset in places too. But it's not me.

Yes, that is a Ford 7.5" integral rear axle flipped over, in case you still had any doubts? It's not your work I know, but the photos (I copied & blew up some) sure make it look like a sloppy fab job on MT's part. I guess they figured no one would see it?

Following …. good luck!

Like the new pipeset too!

Thanks! Got the muffler already cut, looking at how to gut it.

I am probably going to weld and repair. Will depend on the price of the new part. If its a grand for a new assembly... might just 'buy time' and get it. If they want too much, a welding we will go.

I have the axle here at work, and I am going to pressure wash it come daylight. Going to proceed like I am repairing it.

I am not in a hurry to assign blame to anyone. After 13 years who knows what happened to that poor bike. There could have been an impact due to accident or just plain abuse above and beyond the original design limits. Someone may have been too heavy handed with the winch when it was on a flatbed. We will never know.

The goal is to repair, and return to GLEE ON THREE!!

[bikerbillone]

Wow, gotta admire your tenacity on this fix.

[3W-lonerider]

THANK YOU!

Yes indeed- I went ahead and took off the carriage bolts and removed the ladder bars. Got them in the parts washer here at work as I type.

I was SO happy to see they were just retainers, not the pivots.

Any clue on where to find the threaded 'dress cap' like on the left side?

as far as those screw on end caps. there are a couple of options, they do not look anything like iv'e seen on any motortrike kit but then i'm only familiar with the valk and goldwing units.

you could contact your local motortrike dealer and see if they are anything special. but to me after seeing them apart. i tell ya what they look like to me. looks like someone took screw on end caps off of a set of handgrips and screwed on there. but i've never seen handgrip end caps with a screw size of 1/4 inch. and most if not all grip end caps are aluminum and not steel and i see rust in those caps.

[Volkemon]

I bet you are right, and the cap is 5/16 thread I think, it used a 1/2" nut on the carriage bolts.

The rust is in the spacer, and that IS steel tubing, chrome plated. There is a rust stain on the cap, but I am thinking it is from captive water. I will check to see if the cap is steel tonight. My memory of the 'weight-in-hand' makes me think its aluminum.

A huge THANK YOU for the clue on what to look for. I had no idea.

Getting ready to disassemble the ladder bars and paint them. I am leaning towards red or yellow, white even. I want inspection to be SIMPLE, and cracks obvious. Thinking of doing the rear axle the same color for the same reason.

* I gotta call Motortrike! They should be open by now.

[Volkemon]

OK... rear axle is $3500. The dont sell a 'bare housing' only fully assembled. Understandable, I would HOPE that axle failure is a rare event.

On to axle repair!

Cathy is So helpful, as is all the staff at Motortrike so far. I have a coworker who is interested in 'triking' his goldwing, I am recommending Motortrike to him from my experiences. He also has a narrow (60") door on his toy hauler.

Oh... and evidently there is no owners manual or assembly manual available for the VTX1800. Glad I got the goldwing one, will need to read all about getting the ladder bars correctly aligned.

Almost warm enough to pressure wash the axle. Sun is out, and headed for 70*+.

[trike tech]

Volkemon,

Below is a basic document about ladder bar setup & final adjustment. It's can be tedious but is absolutely critical when it comes to a solid axle ladder bar setup.

Also, inspect/check your heim joints for any slack/wear along with play where they thread into the ladder bars, etc. This is the time to check them & replace if necessary.

The single biggest factor to structure damage such as you have is improper or incorrect suspension setup which causes the ladder bars to "bind". This in turn "flexes" the plates/ears on the diff which will eventually lead to failure such as you're seeing first hand. In every single case of structure issues we've seen first hand in our facility, they all had ladder bar/suspension setup issues additionally. Problem is, you can't adjust/setup the heim joints without the rear end in place.

SOLID AXLE suspension adjustment.pdf

[CrystalPistol]

OK... rear axle is $3500. … etc … no owners manual or assembly manual available for the VTX1800.

… etc …

I put 147,xxx miles on a 7.5" Ford rear with 4 lug axles in a '85 Ford Thunderbird we bought in Dec. 1985, just periodic lube level checks, never needed additional as never leaked either. It had the 302 TBI V8 and automatic. Weighed more than your trike too. Developed a tick on left hand turns, likely a flaw in the shaft catching end of rollers?

On a group ride of only 3 days down BRP a few years ago, buddy's GL1500/MT with 8" old hogshead style rear suffered leaking rear axle seal, lube on LR brake shoes, LR brake lock up at slow down, parts at local Advance Auto Parts and a fix in the motel parking lot. Easy fix after supper, no C-clips so no drain of lube to pop inspection plate off. New seal and brake shoes.

Stuff happens.

No manual even available? WoW!

Gutting a Honda OEM muffler? But it is so pretty!

I knew a new axle was not gonna be cheap. New seals, a check for straight, should be good to go.

Lube level.

Take Care!

[Volkemon]

NO worry on the pretty going away... the chrome is already off. The pic I posted is just the chrome shell, no muffler. All my work will be behind the scenes.

I was pretty surprised to hear 'No Manual' also. Not even a PDF... So how is one supposed to know about maintenance items such as lubing the rod ends, how much fluid the rear axle takes/how to check it.... Some might say that is piss poor factory support for a currently advertised kit!

Got the axle clean, and the weld on top of the 'rear strap' on the left is cracked too.

Not very confidence inspiring. I will go over it with a loupe and bright light.

I really want to connect the ladder bar mounts to the diffy housing, so doing research on that. It is cast iron.

Found this..

I have done a lot of welding on offroad truck axles.

In the OFFROAD and ROCKCRAWLING scene it is very common to weld the steel axle tubes to the cast diff housing.

From the factory the axle tubes are pressed into the differential housing, then they are plug welded through holes in the casting (usually only 2 per side). The problem is that they are not really plug welds because they do not really bond to the cast housing, they are only bonded to the steel axle tubes because they are only welded with mild steel MIG (probably ER70S) So what that does is create a button on the axle tube so the diff housing won't spin.

Well, with big horsepower, low gearing and huge tires it puts a ton of force on these 2 little "plug" weld buttons and they can break off allowing the diff housing to spin on the tubes, causing all sorts of issuse (broken driveshafts ect.)... not a fun situation.

I have never had an material analisis done, but I do know that using ER70S- or 7018 doesn't work very well and is not likely to hold up.

I have had 100% success using Nickel rod (Ni-Rod) though, I would not recommend using anything else. I have stick welded a lot of them with Ni-Rod, but lately i have been TIG welding them with Nickel rod. (just looks prettier)

Im not saying that MIG or low-hy wont work, because i have seen it done and hold up just fine... but its not the best choice for the job.

And i will also say that the material used in these castings varies with differnt axle types, I have had some weld quite well and hold up fine with 7018 or MIG but you never know if its going to hold or not.

If you use Nickel rod it will always hold, no worries.

Its a start. The ladder bar mounts on this axle are a poor design IMO. I can see why it 'is what it is', MT is in the business to make trikes and make a profit doing it. Welding cast usually needs pre/post heat, special rods/wire and an experienced weldor.

Sorta like this method found on the Miller Welding forum ..

I'm no super expert but I've had success (after a big time degreasing) with this: 500 degree preheat, bevel as needed (well past the end of the crack), Ni99 rod making short (3/4"-1 1/2" beads) on the inside, grind anytime you think you need too, Keep the heat up all thru the welding, grind the reinforcement flush, flip it over and grind to sound weld metal and weld the outside the same way, post heat and wrap it up in fire blanket then wrap that with cheap house insulation.

So.... looks like I am going to bring the axle home, rip out its guts, then clean some more. Gotta keep a smile on for Mrs V. My 'inner child' is throwing a frustration tantrum, however. Gotta get over it.

[CrystalPistol]

I've welded a fair bit of cast to cast … and to steel using nickel rods, using short welds and long pausing between to let heat spread slowly. The earlier mention of E7014 was what I use strictly on steel, not castings.

Not yet done steel straps or "tabs" to cast centers, but have done axle tubes to centers. Lots of good info on U-tube & welder's forums as well.

That's a lot of cracking there, to be a light weight trike as these are relative to steel strength. Must have had a life down a bumpy road. I just think much of it was fast work. Not to cause worry, but this would be a good time to carefully inspect the frame near the take off points for the rear suspension?

[Volkemon]

I've welded a fair bit of cast to cast … and to steel using nickel rods, using short welds and long pausing between to let heat spread slowly. The earlier mention of E7014 was what I use strictly on steel, not castings.

Not yet done steel straps or "tabs" to cast centers, but have done axle tubes to centers. Lots of good info on U-tube & welder's forums as well.

That's a lot of cracking there, to be a light weight trike as these are relative to steel strength. Must have had a life down a bumpy road. I just think much of it was fast work. Not to cause worry, but this would be a good time to carefully inspect the frame near the take off points for the rear suspension?

I am with you. A casual look at the left side.. top of the strap.



Almost looks like it was patched. Poorly.

I had to stop looking. Very disheartening. Hard to say whether it is a poor design, poor welds or a combination. Oh yeah.. bumpy roads.

I need a break from this.

Played with the exhaust, gonna post on my main thread.

[Warlock]

I did a real good inspection on mine and all looks great. Makes me wonder it the rear end was hit or real bad pot hole. Might never find out what caused it.

David

[Volkemon]

Glad yours looks good! I had to take mine out and pressure wash it twice to have it clean enough to inspect.

That weld on the top of the left strap tells me a story of someone who didnt know how to weld well, just pretty. That isnt a patch, to me thats poor penetration and insufficient prep. Looks like they ground the pieces to have a nice edge, then buzzed the top. I think I see the matching grind marks on the strap corner and the larger piece. I will know when I cut into it. I doubt there is a filled 'V' that cracked. Thats a root tear from a wide flat bead. The thicker bead held, and cracked at the edges.

This type of destruction should not happen from a pothole, IMO. Or even several. This bike has 18K miles. If it had enough rough impacts to do that, there should be MANY 'tattletales' around the back on other components to indicate this abuse. None seen yet.

I am leaning towards poor welding being the culprit.

And that sorta scares me spending the cash on a new axle. With freight, and the dealer markup, I will be lucky to stay under $5k. Motortrike quotes a retail, but its a worthless number. They dont sell retail, and the end seller makes their own price. The driveshaft was marked up 25% OVER the 'retail' MT quoted me by the selling dealer. That would put the axle at $4375 plus freight. I can get a lot of good engineering and welding done for $5K. And the axle is fine, the only fault is the engineering and welding that connects the ladder bars to it.

I have access to a Doctor of Welding Engineering for Ohio State, now retired. He ran this department - https://www.phdportal.com/studies/73...gineering.html

I am going to consult with him about my options. Welding is NOT just 'making sparks'.

""While many think of welding in terms of a process, it is actually a complex engineering discipline that involves aspects of materials science, design, inspection,..................""

[Sidecarbill]

That's a common injury on hotrods that have ladder bars locating the rearend. It makes the rear axle like a big sway bar. You can get away with it for awhile on a light car but it's designed to fail and it will.