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Thread: Pinion Seal Headache

  1. #1
    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache

    I have a 2003 Goldwing 1800 w/a Champion trike kit. W/a Champion vin # 6265. I believe it is also a 2003. I was told that if the flange on the driveshaft that connects to the differential. Has nuts the connecting bolts instead of being threaded directly into the flange on the differential. Then that means it's a Toyota differential. The trouble l'm having is not knowing what model of Toyota differential is used by Champion. Did they use a Tacoma, or a 4Runner or what? I can't just go in to an auto parts store & say l need a pinion seal for a Toyota differential. If anyone knows what model of Toyota differential was used PLEASE let me know. Thanks in advance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    I have a 2003 Goldwing 1800 w/a Champion trike kit. W/a Champion vin # 6265. I believe it is also a 2003. I was told that if the flange on the driveshaft that connects to the differential. Has nuts the connecting bolts instead of being threaded directly into the flange on the differential. Then that means it's a Toyota differential. The trouble l'm having is not knowing what model of Toyota differential is used by Champion. Did they use a Tacoma, or a 4Runner or what? I can't just go in to an auto parts store & say l need a pinion seal for a Toyota differential. If anyone knows what model of Toyota differential was used PLEASE let me know. Thanks in advance
    Tracey....I can't help on the pinion seal, But i'm sure someone will chime in soon with the info you need......But in the mean time i can Welcome You To Trike-Talk .....
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    tracey welcome aboard. I believe someone will be able to answer you shortly.
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    Popout the pinion seal and it should have a number on it and a auto parts store should be able to match the number.

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    Maybe not a good idea and you've already tried Google and You Tube....

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    1250+ Posts CrystalPistol's Avatar
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    Lee H. Mann on here is pretty well versed on Champion trikes as well as Lehman trikes.
    Make Courtesy Your "Code of the Road" too!

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    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion seal for an 03' champion trike

    I just wanted to thank everyone on here that offered help with the issue l was having. I did manage to get the pinion seal replaced. I really wasn't in a position to remove the old one 1st to get a part# So I bought 3 different ones & luckily 1 of them was the right one. It's really a shame that there's not some sort of method. To tell what model of Toyota differential Champion used in their trike kits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    I just wanted to thank everyone on here that offered help with the issue l was having. I did manage to get the pinion seal replaced. I really wasn't in a position to remove the old one 1st to get a part# So I bought 3 different ones & luckily 1 of them was the right one. It's really a shame that there's not some sort of method. To tell what model of Toyota differential Champion used in their trike kits.
    Trace,

    Here is your opportunity to shine and contribute to the Forum.

    You now have the information, how about sharing it.
    Jim Murphy
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    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion seal for an 03' champion trike

    The seal that l ended up using, was for a pre-2005 Toyota Tacoma truck. The Tacoma truck was much smaller before 2005. And Champion switched to a Suzuki differential in mid year 2006. The reason l ended up w/3 different seals is because l couldn't find out what model of Toyota they used. So l got a seal for pretty much every possibiity there was. The kit on our trike is a 2003, so l'm not sure how many years they used the Tacoma differentials. However, l doubt they used a lot of different models. I took the Toyota part# for the Tacoma 90311-38047. And they cross referenced it over to a National brand part #710525. Hopefully this will be helpful to anyone else w/a pinion seal issue. When l called the new owner of Champion, he was not very helpful. Other than he was able to confirm that ours did in fact have a Toyota differential.

  10. #10
    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    I wasn't sure how to go about making a new post. So, instead l'm just adding to my past post. The problem l'm having is that the leak @ the pinion seal, l had replaced has returned. I'm sure the correct seal was installed, because l had the auto parts cross reference the # off the one that was removed. The trike had less than 10k miles on it when it was replaced. The leak stopped for a short time, but then returned after a few hundred miles. I guess my ? to my fellow triker friends is. Did the person install the seal incorrectly or somehow damage it, or is there something else causing the leak? There's no vibration or strange sounds that l'm aware of. It's not leaking badly or dripping constantly, & if l wipe the oil off of it. It doesn't leak while the trike is setting, only after l drive it again, is when the oil reappears just behind the pinion seal area. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    I wasn't sure how to go about making a new post. So, instead l'm just adding to my past post. The problem l'm having is that the leak @ the pinion seal, l had replaced has returned. I'm sure the correct seal was installed, because l had the auto parts cross reference the # off the one that was removed. The trike had less than 10k miles on it when it was replaced. The leak stopped for a short time, but then returned after a few hundred miles. I guess my ? to my fellow triker friends is. Did the person install the seal incorrectly or somehow damage it, or is there something else causing the leak? There's no vibration or strange sounds that l'm aware of. It's not leaking badly or dripping constantly, & if l wipe the oil off of it. It doesn't leak while the trike is setting, only after l drive it again, is when the oil reappears just behind the pinion seal area. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated. Thanks
    There are several reasons you could have a leak. Improper install, fluid too high, vent for rear end plugged, fluid leaking thru splines past the seal.
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
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  12. #12
    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Thanks Jack, l wasn't aware there was a vent, but l'll check it out. I'm sure the fluid level is correct Because l've already checked that. I told the person that installed the seal, about putting silicone on the splines upon assembly & he said they usually do that. So l was under the impression that he was familiar w/that part of it. When l called him back after it started leaking again. He said the only thing left to do would be to change the pinion?? Sounds a bit extreme to me, when the trike has less than 10k miles on it.

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    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Jack, I located the vent on the differential, and it's the kind that can't be removed. I did check it though and the little cap on it spins freely and it's very clean under there. From what I've read you can pop the cap off of the vent and check it or you can leave the cap off and run a little hose off of the tube that's in the differential. I did pry on it a little bit before I read about removing it and it didn't seem like it wanted to come off very easily. My question for you is since it's very clean under there and it has such low mileage on it. Do you think I should go ahead and pry it off to check to make sure it's not clogged or do you think it's okay to just figure it's not that and probably something else? I'm getting ready to go for a pretty long ride on Sunday and I don't want to risk messing something up by taking it apart and then not being able to extend it with a hose. Please let me know what you think about this thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Jack, I located the vent on the differential, and it's the kind that can't be removed. I did check it though and the little cap on it spins freely and it's very clean under there. From what I've read you can pop the cap off of the vent and check it or you can leave the cap off and run a little hose off of the tube that's in the differential. I did pry on it a little bit before I read about removing it and it didn't seem like it wanted to come off very easily. My question for you is since it's very clean under there and it has such low mileage on it. Do you think I should go ahead and pry it off to check to make sure it's not clogged or do you think it's okay to just figure it's not that and probably something else? I'm getting ready to go for a pretty long ride on Sunday and I don't want to risk messing something up by taking it apart and then not being able to extend it with a hose. Please let me know what you think about this thanks again
    The chances are good the vent is OK, myself I like to be sure when doing a job like this

    The chances are higher the seal may have been nicked during installation and or the garter spring on the seal is dislodged
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Klarich View Post
    The chances are good the vent is OK, myself I like to be sure when doing a job like this

    The chances are higher the seal may have been nicked during installation and or the garter spring on the seal is dislodged
    I wonder if the pinion flange itself has a groove on it .....

    How does the flange fit in the seal ?

    Clean everything and see exactly where the oil is coming from...
    Jim Murphy
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    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Hello Jim, thanks for your response. I'm not sure how the flange fits, because l had someone else do it for me. I had it narrowed down to 3 different seals. The person that installed it for me said that the seal for the pre 05' Tacoma was an exact fit. It didn't leak for a few hundred miles, but then it started again. It inly leaks when it's in motion though, it doesn't leave any drips on cardboard etc if you leave it set. To be absolutely sure l had the correct seal, l had the number off the old one. Cross referenced at the auto parts. And it was in fact the same number as the one l had installed. The other thing that has me puzzled is that Toyota used the same seal on their mini trucks up until 1995. The strange thing is that from what l can find, all their trucks had 5 lug wheels.

    A Champion trike has 4 lug wheels. I cant find any way to tell what vehicle they made that used that differential & had a 4 lug wheel pattern. Not that that really matters all that much. But from what l can find, Toyota produced 3 different differentials for their trucks, & the most common is called the "4 cylinder" differential. This is most likely the one that champion used in their kits. I can't explain why they have the 4 lug pattern though. I guess l'll just have to find someone in my area that isn't afraid to work on a trike. Sorry for such a long reply

  17. #17
    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Oh and also Jim, l forgot to mention in my last message. But l've already cleaned it off, and the leak us in the exact same place again. Right where the pinion shaft goes in to the differential. Behind the end cap that's on the very tip of the differential.

    Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Oh and also Jim, l forgot to mention in my last message. But l've already cleaned it off, and the leak us in the exact same place again. Right where the pinion shaft goes in to the differential. Behind the end cap that's on the very tip of the differential.

    Thanks again
    Trace, I think we are using different terminology when naming parts, we talk past each other.

    Typically a pinion leak is in one or more of three areas;

    between the pinion shaft or stem splines and the pinion flange splines coming past the pinion stem nut; between the pinion rubber seal surface and the contacting pinion flange surface;

    or between the pinion seal outer shell and the differential carrier.

    Damages to any of these sealing surfaces and insufficient sealing can produce a leak.

    Other causes are cracks and gouges in these surfaces as well.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	TYPICAL PINION LEAK.jpg 
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    Jim Murphy
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    30+ Posts Trace's Avatar
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Hello again Jim, thanks for your help on this & the diagram as well. I'm not sure where it's leaking at other than it's coming out of the front where the cover is over the large nut. When l get back home l'm having a different person try to see what the problem is. Hopefully this time it can be resolved, thanks again!! Trace

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    Not to muddy things, but just as an example. I have a few Fords, 4 have the 8.8" integral rear (well one has just the center with IRS half shafts) …. anyway, none were leaking except the one with lowest miles, my Wife's '08 Mustang GT was leaking just a few months after we got it, had 23,xxx miles. Pretty good leak, but I noticed that I could back it up on ramps, crawl under it and wipe clean and use some brake clean and have it dry, and it would stay dry until next time we took it out. I was going to R&R the seal, but after thinking on it, recalling several Ford police cars, our '01 Mercury, my '95 T-bird, my two pickups, our trike (6.75 rear), then of all the 14 police cars assigned over 31+ years, my various other personal cars, I only ever had one, a Chevrolet Caprice police car have a leaking pinion seal where you see oil drips like I saw under the Mustang. I suspected a dirt dobber maybe built in the vent hose and stopped it up so I looked. The Mustang had NO hose, it had a small vent with a light spring loaded disc valve under a crimped on top hat. I know the disc is only lightly spring loaded to prevent water incursion, but it's a small hole it blocks. When pressure builds in the rear from heat, it has to push against that spring to vent, the hole is maybe 1/4". It probably takes some couple or three psi to push it open. I take zero psi to push through an open ended hose. I also looked, all my other cars and my PU have hoses that go high to a loop. I bought a proper threaded hose barb, ran a 3/8ID hose from the barb up to the body, then looped it into a frame rail. I zip tied a screen on the open end. NO MORE LEAKING PINION SEAL.
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Hello & thanks for your input on this, l do really appreciate everyone's help with this. Jack had also mentioned about the vent on the rear end/ differential. I did locate it and it's the same type you're speaking of w/the little pressed on cap. It moves freely & l did pry on it a little w/a screw driver. It seemed like it didn't want to come off unless l would really pry on it. This was before l read anything further about putting a hose on etc. The trike has such low miles on it & it's so clean under there, that l just couldn't see how it could be clogged up. After reading what other people on here said about attaching a hose to it. I was considering doing it, but we were leaving for an extended ride the next day, so l decided not to do it. I was afraid of breaking something off What you have described is pretty much exactly how mine's behaving though. It only leaks out of the pinion seal area, after l've run it a while. It can set in the garage over a piece of card board for days & l won't see as much as a drop. Do you think it could possibly be clogged even though it's practically like new underneath? Thanks for your help w/this

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    - - - Updated - - -

    Tracy, if you use a pliers you can remove the hat on that vent, then you can put a hose on the tube with a clamp and run the hose up under the body Once you get the hat off you can run a small drill bit thru the center to make sure the hole is not plugged
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Oh and just one other thing that l forgot to mention is that on my differential. The little tube that has the cap on it ISN'T removable at least it doesn't seem like it is anyway. It appears as though it's pressed in somehow. So my only other option, if l were to remove the little cap. Would be to attach a hose directly to the little vent tube. Do you think that would be long enough to hold the hose on w/a small clamp??

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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Hi Jack, thanks for your reply, that's sort of what l had in mind as well. So just so l'm sure here, you're saying that little cap thing. Should just pop off of there, & then the tube will be long enough to attach a hose?? I just want to make certain before l go any further with it. But at least this way l can rule out the vent being the problem. I guess there's a chance the vent tube could have somehow gotten gummed up. I was told when l bought it that it had sat for 10 yrs or more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Hello & thanks for your input on this, l do really appreciate everyone's help with this. Jack had also mentioned about the vent on the rear end/ differential. I did locate it and it's the same type you're speaking of w/the little pressed on cap. It moves freely & l did pry on it a little w/a screw driver. It seemed like it didn't want to come off unless l would really pry on it. This was before l read anything further about putting a hose on etc. The trike has such low miles on it & it's so clean under there, that l just couldn't see how it could be clogged up. After reading what other people on here said about attaching a hose to it. I was considering doing it, but we were leaving for an extended ride the next day, so l decided not to do it. I was afraid of breaking something off What you have described is pretty much exactly how mine's behaving though. It only leaks out of the pinion seal area, after l've run it a while. It can set in the garage over a piece of card board for days & l won't see as much as a drop. Do you think it could possibly be clogged even though it's practically like new underneath? Thanks for your help w/this




    Anything is possible......If the vent is not working properly as the oil gets hot from riding it expands and has go somewhere it could also be a combination of too much oil ' And a nonworking vent...?...Maybe the wrong weight oil in the differential too thin.?...

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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    When l had the pinion seal replaced, the mechanic that installed it, had put 80w90 in it. It didn't leak for a few hundred miles, but then it started again. So....... I then read that Champion recommends 85w140, so l drained it back out into a large measuring cup & it had exactly 1 qt. in it. So l put a qt. of the 85w140 back in and it was still just slightly below the fill hole. So l'm pretty sure l can rule out that's it's too full. One thing that had me puzzled though is that if l wipe the area off where the drips are. It tries to get wet again in that area even if l only drive it for a few miles. That's why l don't see how it can hot enough to build up pressure if it's the vent. Do you think that's long enough for it to build up heat & for e the oil out??

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    If you pull the vent cap, whatever you do don't run drill through it unless it's off the bike. You don't want metal shavings in the rear end. Is there any play or side movement at the pinion? Why did the mechanic that replaced it say if that doesn't fix it, it will need a new pinion?

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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Hello Sidecar Bill, l hope you're doing well & thanks for your response. I think l'm going to just use a piece of coat hanger wire & maybe bend it like an allen wrench. And try to push it through the hole, that way there's no way l can accidentally drop it in. I don't think there's any play in the pinion shaft & l don't know why the mechanic said about. The only other thing l could do is change the pinion. I don't know if he's done many of these, because they mostly work on ATV'S. I had to sort of "talk" him in to doing it for me. One of my concerns was about putting silicone on the splines before reassembling the pinion etc. I would have thought that would be something that would need time to set up before putting things back together, but maybe l'm wrong? I would think the oil would just go right by the silicone if it wasn't fully cured. My other concern before removing the vent cap is that l'm not sure if that little tube has some sort of flanged end or if it's just a straight end in it. Because if l remove it l need to be able to slide a hose over the end of it & there's no room in there to remove a flanged end. Also when l first bought this trike about a year ago. The guys at the shop had told me that it was a one owner trike & the owner had bought it new in 03' & immediately had it converted. He put roughly 7k miles on it but then became ill & passed away. So the trike had sit for at least 10 yrs before l got it. However when l changed the oil about 2 months ago. That's when l noticed the differential was leaking @ the. pinion. And it had quite a bit of dirt built up on it. So l'm thinking it may have even been leaking when the original owner had it. I think Champion changes the pinions & maybe the axles as well because the Toyota pickups have a much lower gear ratio. And l can't figure out why the trike only has a 4 lug wheel pattern. Because from what l can find the Toyota trucks had 5 lug patterns. So my question to this long reply is, if this thing may have started leaking shortly after the original owner started riding it? Maybe the differential vent isn't functioning? If you have an opinion l'd greatly appreciate it, & thank you for taking the time to read this mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Hi Jack, thanks for your reply, that's sort of what l had in mind as well. So just so l'm sure here, you're saying that little cap thing. Should just pop off of there, & then the tube will be long enough to attach a hose?? I just want to make certain before l go any further with it. But at least this way l can rule out the vent being the problem. I guess there's a chance the vent tube could have somehow gotten gummed up. I was told when l bought it that it had sat for 10 yrs or more.
    Yes I would surely try that. When I said run a drill thru it I should have been more clear. You would be only using the drill bit by hand to make sure the hole is not plugged up. A piece of wire would also work. The nipple end of the barb where the hat was should be long enuff to attach a hose and clamp. Loop the hose up.
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Hi again Jack, thanks for the response, l sort of thought that was the way you meant to use the drill bit. I'm not sure there's enough room to do that though. That's why l had the wire idea, well that & the fear of accidentally dropping the drill bit

    I think when we get back, l'm going to go ahead & remove the little cap & attach a hose to the tube. Then drive it somewhere, to test it for leakage. And if it doesn't solve the problem, then l guess l'll just have the seal replaced again by someone else. Did you read what l had said about the whole silicone on the splines? If so what are your thoughts on that?

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    If the splines are leaking, you would see oil on the flange where the nut tightens to it. I'd make sure the vent is open. And if it was mine run it awhile see if it gets better or worse. Could be he just greased the seal real well before he installed it. And now you're seeing the residual effects of that.

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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Hi sidecar Bill, l'm quite certain it's leaking past the seal vs. grease. Because when l drained the 85w90 out & replaced it with the 85w140. The heavier oil has a green tint to it& & l can see it. At the seam where the cap butts up against the front of the differential where the pinion seal is. I will absolutely take that little cap off & check for blockage & put a hose in its place. Then l guess l'll just go from there. I'm really hoping that solves the issue. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Oh and just one other thing that l forgot to mention is that on my differential. The little tube that has the cap on it ISN'T removable at least it doesn't seem like it is anyway. It appears as though it's pressed in somehow. So my only other option, if l were to remove the little cap. Would be to attach a hose directly to the little vent tube. Do you think that would be long enough to hold the hose on w/a small clamp??
    does this look like the vent?
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    Maybe you can take a picture so we can see exactly where it's leaking.

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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    No, that's what l was expecting to find as well. But the one on mine isn't removable. Instead it's pressed or somehow fastened into the differential. It has a small cap that is somehow crimped on, that is also very stubborn to remove. It does move freely though & seems springy if you push on it. So l don't think it's frozen, but maybe it has some sort of blockage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    No, that's what l was expecting to find as well. But the one on mine isn't removable. Instead it's pressed or somehow fastened into the differential. It has a small cap that is somehow crimped on, that is also very stubborn to remove. It does move freely though & seems springy if you push on it. So l don't think it's frozen, but maybe it has some sort of blockage?
    Understood. Many are a light press fit. Some are even plastic. GM has used that type for years. While it is possible yours has some blockage or the valve is sticking some, if it were my ride I would rip the hat off with a twisting motion and put a hose on it. WE did many 4 wheel drive trucks like that for years. This would give you peace of mind IMO plus a better venting system ( less chance of water and dirt intrusion plus more volume for more pressure venting) Good Luck and keep us updated
    Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    I would post a picture in here, but l'm not able to at this time. As l need to remove the tire to make it visible. It's just a small stem about the same diameter as a pencil. With a little flat cap crimped

    to the top, that you can spin w/you finger. I pried on it a little, but l don't think it's intended to be removed/replaced. Which to me is a very poor design indeed.

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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Ok, so l'll try to pop the little cap off when l get it back home. Like l had said on here before though it seems like it's on there pretty good. But at least now thanks to all of you, l know it can be removed. Is the purpose of looping the hose to keep water from getting in there?? Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Ok, so l'll try to pop the little cap off when l get it back home. Like l had said on here before though it seems like it's on there pretty good. But at least now thanks to all of you, l know it can be removed. Is the purpose of looping the hose to keep water from getting in there?? Thanks again
    Yes, the loop will help to keep water out

    The cap on the vent is crimped on, if you squeeze it in a few spots with a pliers it should wiggle off

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Ok, so l'll try to pop the little cap off when l get it back home. Like l had said on here before though it seems like it's on there pretty good. But at least now thanks to all of you, l know it can be removed. Is the purpose of looping the hose to keep water from getting in there?? Thanks again
    Yes, the loop will help to keep water out

    The cap on the vent is crimped on, if you squeeze it in a few spots with a pliers it should wiggle off
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    Default Pinion Seal Headache AGAIN :(

    Do you mean squeeze it around the edge of the lip on the top? Or do you mean grip around the whole thing and jiggle it up? I just want to be sure l do this correctly. Because l don't want to damage that little stem under the cap right?

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