Hey Kevin, hope your winter is going well....looking at some of your snow videos, it sure looks like it is. Hope the freezing weather didn't do the same number on you as it did in Texas.
We've bee in AZ since January. Brought the Freewheeler down in November...been riding quite a bit, and been over some of the same roads the Fall East AZ rides were on. He picked some great riding!
The 2016 TriGlide I had when we met in S Falls is in the shop over the winter. Had a 'clicking' noise, bought HD ESP warranty when I purchased it, so let them figure it out. Been there since mid November, but told them I'm in no hurry as would be in AZ for the winter, so they're able to work on it at shops convenience. I had earlier had an indy shop replace lifters/pushrods with adjustable rods...and told the HD service dept about this....so, of course, the first thing they did was replace same! Thought they had it fixed, but noise returned after the tech rode it. Now, he's thinking low oil pressure and replacing with high volume pump.
I have installed the DK oil relocation kit and oil cooler, and at start up they think maybe low oil pressure due to extra hose length? I'm no mechanic, but don't see how this could be. I check pressure somewhat infrequently when riding, and it's usually between 33 and 36...I don't think that's out of line.
Have any customers replaced the oil pump to your knowledge? Or, do you have any thoughts about this? I'm very happy with lower temps and ease of filter change! I'm hoping they're not going to deny coverage because of aftermarket cooler/and relocation kit.
Do you think oil pump exchange is the way to go? I know you can't diagnose over the internet, but just wondering if you had any thoughts?
Have a great spring, and hope to get out this fall for the East AZ ride. ( Had first Covid shot yesterday, and 2nd in 3 weeks, so should be able to travel freely!)
Thanks,
Bill
Hey Bill!
We did not get hit as hard as Texas, but it did effectively shut down virtually everything in the Memphis area.
UPS, USPS and FedEx stopped running for almost an entire week. Even Amazon was not delivering from their local warehouses!
It is a sunny 70 degrees today, so hopefully all that mess is behind us.
Sounds like y'all are having a great time out in AZ, enjoying the warm weather and some great roads.
With the oil filter relo and the oil cooler, there is No drop in oil pressure and No delay in pressure building. When I say no, I mean less than 1/2 of a PSI at the most, and less than 200 milliseconds difference in pressure building.
This is one of the first things we tested, extensively, when we were designing these parts.
Hopefully they checked the hoses for any kinks or pinches...highly unlikely they exist, but always a possibility, and that should be checked if it has not been.
No offense, especially if you like the guys at the shop, but it sounds like they're just guessing and replacing parts. Which may or may not be a bad thing if it is not costing you anything.
Whenever I am troubleshooting I always go by process of elimination, starting with the easiest and least expensive first.
Your Tri Glide is a '16, so the most common source of a clicking noise are the Rockers. Not hearing it, can't say for sure that is it. But it is far and away the most common. And it can start when new or after many miles. The solution is simple and inexpensive. Rocker Lockers, which you can see HERE.
They have started down the lubrication path...first thing to check is the actual oil pressure, it is either good or not, and either comes up to pressure quickly (1-2 seconds) or not. If the pressure is good, (and it is not the rocker shafts) then it is time to listen with a stethoscope to see if the part of the engine making the clicking can be located. Then see if there is some blockage in the oil passageways feeding that area.
If there are no blockages (oh, and check to make sure the oil filter is not somehow the factor), then it may be time to start looking at hard parts, of which there are many that could cause a clicking noise.
That is where an Experienced Mechanic (not a Tech parts replacer) really comes into play, isolating the area and having the experience to know the difference between a rod knock, a partially collapsed lifter, a bad cam chest bearing etc.
But I would check the rockers first, there are 500 Twin Cams that click because of that for every one that clicks from something else.
Have fun out in AZ. Hope our paths cross again soon.
Kevin
I agree with Kevin. It can be the rocker arms clacking. Not a big surprise with the way the rocker shafts are made.
Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
Current ride : 2021 FREEWHEELER M8, oldest ride 1960 FL
The filter relocation/oil cooler kit is on my list along with the EBS catch can. I think I will be done with the motor after that.
2016 Tri Glide, More DK than HD. Just shut up and ride.
Hey, thanks for the quick reply!
I'm sure you noticed in my original message I said 'tech'....not mechanic! And, I had told them about already replacing the rockers earlier in the summer...so we start with replacing new parts...oh well, I'm not a mechanic.
I don't think oil pressure will end up being the problem...I do check that when riding...not frequently, but it is checked and there is always appropriate pressure (30-36), if I remember correctly.
I'm hoping they have it figured out when we get home. They should be able to test ride the trike...I noticed temps back in SD in the 50s and 60s this week....only 20 or so degrees difference than here last week!
I'll keep you in the loop
Bill
Hi Barry,
Yes, we have tested that. There is no perceptible decrease in oil temperature with the Harley Coolflow fan.
It is not designed to cool the engine or the oil.
It is designed to redirect the heat from the engine away from the rider and the passenger onto the ground.
Kevin
Here is a good link on what you can do to actually decrease engine and oil temperature (which will result in less actual heat, so the rider and passenger will feel less heat) ie. solution vs. bandaid
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...3QggFJ3nteFd_C
Cheapest flight we found back home was on April 18th. Kind of wanted to stay till closer to May, but prices really went up after the middle of the month....so 18th of April it is (early morning flight).
Yes, I'm hoping it'll be ready to go. I'm leaving the Freewheeler here in AZ, so only other riding options are the Tri (in the shop) or my daughters 883 Low Sporty.....not a great rider for me!
Hey Barry,
Looks like you have a 2020 Tri Glide. The unfortunate thing with those is that they do not have any real way to dissipate the heat from the oil. The only fins on the bike that help dissipate heat are on the cylinders and heads....but there is no oil flowing thru those.
So, by doing some, or all, of the things at this LINK for reducing heat in the engine (the actual metal), absent adding an oil cooler and/or filter relo, there is no good way to reduce oil temps down to the optimum area of 230 F.
Because, with time, the oil will always normalize to the internal metal temps.
Your SE intake and tuner may reduce engine temps by a few degrees, doubtful even 10 degrees. They are EPA compliant and the EPA wants High Temperatures (they don't care about the longevity or power production).
Yes, you're correct, the 447 cam is not going to do you any favors heat wise.
This may be a video that you find useful-
Kevin
Kevin, thank you for the time of a thorough response. When my warranty is up I will be adding some of your products. In the mean time I’ll do the best I can with Harley Factory Warranty compliance. I appreciate all the research you do , particularly for trikes, that you share on this site. Be Safe Barry
No, the temps should...should be in the daytime 60s and cooler at night. But, can snow anytime in the midwest!
Love Beartooth! We've done it twice...but never on the trike. Daughter was 15 yrs old on our 1st trip...SD motorcycle learners permit... on a 650 Suzuki single...was that called a 'Bandit'? Stayed in Red Lodge, so up to Cooke City and back. Her first big trip, from NE SD there and back. Wife and I were on a 650 Yamaha V Star. This was back in 2007. Don't want to ride 1800 miles on either bike again! 2nd time was a solo trip on the Heritage in 2014 or 2015 I think?,....total blast!!
It's about 800+ miles to Red Lodge from home...hmmmm, 2 day ride out, ride the Pass, 2 days home...easy week! May have to keep July in play!!
Got a call from the HD service mgr today (Saturday). With nicer weather back home, they were able to put some miles on the Tri. He said the tech had bypassed the relocated filter and cooler, rode it around 40 miles and no clicking sound. He recommended the higher pressure pump. We were out on a ride, so I wasn't able to read back what you had told me in the previous post about oil pressure and start up, etc. The dealership is closed Sunday and Monday, so I told him I'd call back on Tuesday when I could be at the computer and read our conversation to him. Wait and see, I guess....and, I forgot to ask about my ESP coverage or estimated cost if not covered.
Thanks,
Bill
Sorry about the 2 week delay in the post....finally getting caught up on some TrikeTalk time!
Hey Bill,
Sorry, not been on the forum for a bit.
Yeah, Beartooth is a blast. I believe it is still Mary's favorite road, and it is definitely in my all time top 10.
Not sure how they bypassed the oil cooler and filter relo.
But if they did, and there was no clicking, and then they put it back and there was clicking, that would be a good process of elimination...narrowing down the possible culprits.
If there is good pressure, then it must be reduced flow.
First thing I would do is change the filter. It does not happen often, but filters can get clogged enough to slow down flow, but not go into bypass mode...or the bypass could be bad too. But changing the filter would either fix it, or eliminate it as a source.
Actually, the first thing I would do is visually inspect all the hoses, making sure there are no kinks/restrictions...then the filter.
If it is neither of those, then bypass the oil cooler. I have never heard of a Jagg oil cooler having something break loose internally and restrict flow...but anything is possible.
If that still does not do it, there are only a couple of options left.
1. The hoses look good, but one of them is collapsed internally OR there is a chunk of something in one of them, restricting flow. Again, not something I've seen, but there is always that possibility.
2. The two adapter plates...the one where the oil filter used to go, and the one where the relocated oil filter mounts. There is nothing in either of those plates that restricts flow as they are made. But if something is in your oil passageways that broke loose and then got lodged in one of those, that would do it.
IF, and it is a big if, they really did bypass those and there was no clicking, then hooked them back up, changing nothing else, and the clicking returned, then it has to be one of the things I listed above.
Those additions (oil cooler and filter relo) put no extra workload on the oil pump. So unless they are going to give you the oil pump at no cost, it is not the answer.
Hope that helps.
Kevin
I was at a Harley dealer today talking with the parts manager getting a new oil filter, told him I was putting on a oil filter relocation kit, He laughed asked were it mounted told him under the passenger foot board he said come look at this, go to the shop there sits a 2020 black tri with no motor in it and it has no warrantee. Harley said the aftermarket oil filter relocation kit and the oil cooler was to much for the little heart to handle.
Asked him who owned it or were it was from, would not answer me ? Im going let mine kit sit on the bench for a while see where this goes ?
I completely respect and understand you're wanting to wait and see. Last thing anyone wants to do to their ride is install something that may hurt it.
The parts manager you referenced is either ignorant of how Harley engines work (and how the oil filter and oil cooler work) or is being disingenuous.
We would never make a part available that jeopardizes someone's engine, or overtaxes the oil pump.
Of course, most folks do not know us, and many folks may think we are just trying to sell parts and will say anything...or maybe we are ignorant. I understand that too.
We regularly hear from employees at dealerships that have not the foggiest idea what they are talking about, BUT they have customers that trust them implicitly.
We hear from them because they call us and and say this or that part cannot be installed, or ask us how to install this or that, having never read the instructions that came with the part. We then proceed to read the instructions to them so they can finish their installation. It is difficult to communicate, or understand, the depth of incompetence at so many dealerships.
And while on the subject, it is not just HD dealerships. Last week Mary took her truck in to one of the largest Ford Dealerships in the mid-south for a regular service. I copied the page from the manual where it says part of the service is to lube the grease fittings on the front axle u-joints, and asked her to make sure they did that too.
They explained to her that there are no zerk (grease) fittings, everything is sealed. She asked them to please look, she was sure there were (because I assured her there were) and also the manual says there are. They spent 5 minutes making her feel stupid for not believing them. She left without them doing it.
I got home, crawled under the truck, and in 5 seconds had my hand on the "non-existent" grease fitting.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but it illustrates the unfathomable incompetence and arrogance of many employees at many dealerships.
I completely understand being very cautious, and would never try and convince anyone to do something with their ride that they are not 100% comfortable with.
I do want to assure you that the parts, properly installed, will not damage or overtax any engine they are made for....we simply would not do that.
Kevin
Kevin, I agree with your standing behind ALL of your (tested in house) products and I also think HD is missing a bigger problem with the oil pumps. The gear rotor pump is a very good pump, however what I think HD is missing is the pumps cannot keep up with the air pressures in the crank cases. The pump by itself cannot overcome the air and oil at the same time. This is creating a vacuum that will lead to sumping. This is JMO, what I cannot still figure out is why do not ALL M8 engines sump? I also believe the head breathers are not able to remove the pressure in the cases fully and need to be addressed by HD
Nuff Said," Were Burnin Daylight, Lets Ride"(Sober 37 years)
Current ride : 2021 FREEWHEELER M8, oldest ride 1960 FL
Thanks Jack.
Yes, the M8's have had random oil pump problems. These problems occur stock & with various mods. The mods are not the problem, it is the oil pump. If it is going to have a problem it will have it, regardless of the mods. The problems do seem to be less frequent in later years, but it is not completely resolved. What are they on now...like the 8th revision of the oil pump on the M8's?
On the Twin Cams there were oil pump issues, but not catastrophic like on the M8's. On the Twin Cams the scavenging did not work so well on some bikes (resulting in excessive blow-by), but that was because of the crank being slightly out of round. The pumps themselves were fine, unless they were paired with a crank that was too far out of round.
I do not know if that is the issue on the M8's or not...have not researched it.
Kevin
The problem is Harley see's the aftermarket oil cooler and 8 feet of hose now they cancell the warranty ,like any aftermarket motor part they get out of warranting that motor that has known problem's ? they paid the fine to the E P A, but in the long run Harley is making out better by consumer's changing exhaust cutting out cat's changing air filter's cam's what ever that make's there bike bike non E PA compliant Harley tell's the customer we have to cancell your warranty because you altered the emission on your bike with aftermarket part's , They say it's not us the E P A make's us do it or we get fined again . Buy harley part's have the dealer install or were sorry your warranty is cancelled WIN WIN WIN for Harley
What he said was go to Macdonalds buy a thick milkshake cut the straw down to 2" suck on it you will get milkshake instantly, Get 10 straw's = " 8' of oil line and cooler" tape them together you will suck your eye ball's out of your head before you get milkshake ? Funny Guy It does make sence to me that could cause problem's with a allready weak oil system ?
Devils Advocate Here........And Hypothetically speaking.......You have a Stock Tri-Glide in perfect condition and sell it to someone, And to sweeten the deal give the buyer a 30 day Guarantee...........And then the buyer 10 days later blows the engine and wants you to pay for a new engine......And upon looking at the Trike you find he the buyer added all those after market parts that you mentioned to the perfectly stock Trike you sold to him ..... ....What would you say to the buyer....????
Sometimes a Cigar is Just a Cigar.....
2019 Tri-Glide.......
[QUOTE=ROAD DOG;824215] Yeah, seems right on the surface. But that is not how it works. (milkshake, oil, sucking, pushing, etc.)
On top of that, there are tens of thousands of M8's running around with no oil pump problems, tens of thousands of which have oil coolers from the factory(see every M8 Softail oil cooler and oil cooler lines) and thousands of which have oil filter relocations...with zero problems.
The problem is the random oil pump that is somehow defective and does not pump correctly, regardless of any mods.
But, again, I completely understand holding off.
I rode an M8 Tri-Glide the day they were released, in 2016. I really like that engine. But I held off on getting one for almost 3 years. Did not want to take the chance on getting one that might have a problem (as so many did in the first couple of years).
Kevin
Here's a video of a test ride on the first M8 Street Glide to arrive in the Memphis area. Rode this before we rode the M8 Tri Glide a month later.
Note how long all the oil hoses are that feed and return oil to the heads and the oil cooler.
Kevin
I think the MM Act is appropriate. If the mod caused the problem, then he voided the warranty.
If his mod did not cause the problem, he did not void the warranty.
Just 1 example of how Harley is abusing the illegal power give to them by the Consent Decree with the EPA-
Someone installs V&H slip-ons onto their M8 Softail. A month later one of the sparks plugs rattle loose out of the head. The slip-ons had NO bearing on the spark plug being installed loose at the factory, resulting in damaged threads in the head.
But the entire power train warranty is voided. Ridiculous, but that is the intended consequence of the collusion the occurred between Harley & the EPA.
Kevin