Video - Does Your Harley REALLY Need an Oil Cooler?

[DK Custom Products]

LINK to DK Custom Oil Coolers

[BILLIJAK]

Hey Kevin, hope your winter is going well....looking at some of your snow videos, it sure looks like it is. Hope the freezing weather didn't do the same number on you as it did in Texas.

We've bee in AZ since January. Brought the Freewheeler down in November...been riding quite a bit, and been over some of the same roads the Fall East AZ rides were on. He picked some great riding!

The 2016 TriGlide I had when we met in S Falls is in the shop over the winter. Had a 'clicking' noise, bought HD ESP warranty when I purchased it, so let them figure it out. Been there since mid November, but told them I'm in no hurry as would be in AZ for the winter, so they're able to work on it at shops convenience. I had earlier had an indy shop replace lifters/pushrods with adjustable rods...and told the HD service dept about this....so, of course, the first thing they did was replace same! Thought they had it fixed, but noise returned after the tech rode it. Now, he's thinking low oil pressure and replacing with high volume pump.

I have installed the DK oil relocation kit and oil cooler, and at start up they think maybe low oil pressure due to extra hose length? I'm no mechanic, but don't see how this could be. I check pressure somewhat infrequently when riding, and it's usually between 33 and 36...I don't think that's out of line.

Have any customers replaced the oil pump to your knowledge? Or, do you have any thoughts about this? I'm very happy with lower temps and ease of filter change! I'm hoping they're not going to deny coverage because of aftermarket cooler/and relocation kit.

Do you think oil pump exchange is the way to go? I know you can't diagnose over the internet, but just wondering if you had any thoughts?

Have a great spring, and hope to get out this fall for the East AZ ride. ( Had first Covid shot yesterday, and 2nd in 3 weeks, so should be able to travel freely!)

Thanks,

Bill

[DK Custom Products]

Hey Bill!

We did not get hit as hard as Texas, but it did effectively shut down virtually everything in the Memphis area.

UPS, USPS and FedEx stopped running for almost an entire week. Even Amazon was not delivering from their local warehouses!

It is a sunny 70 degrees today, so hopefully all that mess is behind us.

Sounds like y'all are having a great time out in AZ, enjoying the warm weather and some great roads.

With the oil filter relo and the oil cooler, there is No drop in oil pressure and No delay in pressure building. When I say no, I mean less than 1/2 of a PSI at the most, and less than 200 milliseconds difference in pressure building.

This is one of the first things we tested, extensively, when we were designing these parts.

Hopefully they checked the hoses for any kinks or pinches...highly unlikely they exist, but always a possibility, and that should be checked if it has not been.

No offense, especially if you like the guys at the shop, but it sounds like they're just guessing and replacing parts. Which may or may not be a bad thing if it is not costing you anything.

Whenever I am troubleshooting I always go by process of elimination, starting with the easiest and least expensive first.

Your Tri Glide is a '16, so the most common source of a clicking noise are the Rockers. Not hearing it, can't say for sure that is it. But it is far and away the most common. And it can start when new or after many miles. The solution is simple and inexpensive. Rocker Lockers, which you can see HERE.

They have started down the lubrication path...first thing to check is the actual oil pressure, it is either good or not, and either comes up to pressure quickly (1-2 seconds) or not. If the pressure is good, (and it is not the rocker shafts) then it is time to listen with a stethoscope to see if the part of the engine making the clicking can be located. Then see if there is some blockage in the oil passageways feeding that area.

If there are no blockages (oh, and check to make sure the oil filter is not somehow the factor), then it may be time to start looking at hard parts, of which there are many that could cause a clicking noise.

That is where an Experienced Mechanic (not a Tech parts replacer) really comes into play, isolating the area and having the experience to know the difference between a rod knock, a partially collapsed lifter, a bad cam chest bearing etc.

But I would check the rockers first, there are 500 Twin Cams that click because of that for every one that clicks from something else.

Have fun out in AZ. Hope our paths cross again soon.

Kevin

[Jack Klarich]

I agree with Kevin. It can be the rocker arms clacking. Not a big surprise with the way the rocker shafts are made.

[DOKK]

The filter relocation/oil cooler kit is on my list along with the EBS catch can. I think I will be done with the motor after that.

[BKtrike]

LINK to DK Custom Oil Coolers

I am having a Harley Davidson cooling fan added at dealer now. Have you done any testing on how much that fan reduces oil temp? Thanx, Be Safe, Barry

[BILLIJAK]

Hey Bill!

We did not get hit as hard as Texas, but it did effectively shut down virtually everything in the Memphis area.

UPS, USPS and FedEx stopped running for almost an entire week. Even Amazon was not delivering from their local warehouses!

It is a sunny 70 degrees today, so hopefully all that mess is behind us.

Sounds like y'all are having a great time out in AZ, enjoying the warm weather and some great roads.

With the oil filter relo and the oil cooler, there is No drop in oil pressure and No delay in pressure building. When I say no, I mean less than 1/2 of a PSI at the most, and less than 200 milliseconds difference in pressure building.

This is one of the first things we tested, extensively, when we were designing these parts.

Hopefully they checked the hoses for any kinks or pinches...highly unlikely they exist, but always a possibility, and that should be checked if it has not been.

No offense, especially if you like the guys at the shop, but it sounds like they're just guessing and replacing parts. Which may or may not be a bad thing if it is not costing you anything.

Whenever I am troubleshooting I always go by process of elimination, starting with the easiest and least expensive first.

Your Tri Glide is a '16, so the most common source of a clicking noise are the Rockers. Not hearing it, can't say for sure that is it. But it is far and away the most common. And it can start when new or after many miles. The solution is simple and inexpensive. Rocker Lockers, which you can see HERE.

They have started down the lubrication path...first thing to check is the actual oil pressure, it is either good or not, and either comes up to pressure quickly (1-2 seconds) or not. If the pressure is good, (and it is not the rocker shafts) then it is time to listen with a stethoscope to see if the part of the engine making the clicking can be located. Then see if there is some blockage in the oil passageways feeding that area.

If there are no blockages (oh, and check to make sure the oil filter is not somehow the factor), then it may be time to start looking at hard parts, of which there are many that could cause a clicking noise.

That is where an Experienced Mechanic (not a Tech parts replacer) really comes into play, isolating the area and having the experience to know the difference between a rod knock, a partially collapsed lifter, a bad cam chest bearing etc.

But I would check the rockers first, there are 500 Twin Cams that click because of that for every one that clicks from something else.

Have fun out in AZ. Hope our paths cross again soon.

Kevin

Hey, thanks for the quick reply!

I'm sure you noticed in my original message I said 'tech'....not mechanic! And, I had told them about already replacing the rockers earlier in the summer...so we start with replacing new parts...oh well, I'm not a mechanic.

I don't think oil pressure will end up being the problem...I do check that when riding...not frequently, but it is checked and there is always appropriate pressure (30-36), if I remember correctly.

I'm hoping they have it figured out when we get home. They should be able to test ride the trike...I noticed temps back in SD in the 50s and 60s this week....only 20 or so degrees difference than here last week!

I'll keep you in the loop

Bill

[DK Custom Products]

The filter relocation/oil cooler kit is on my list along with the EBS catch can. I think I will be done with the motor after that.

I believe you will be well please with all those upgrades.

Kevin

[DK Custom Products]

I am having a Harley Davidson cooling fan added at dealer now. Have you done any testing on how much that fan reduces oil temp? Thanx, Be Safe, Barry

Hi Barry,

Yes, we have tested that. There is no perceptible decrease in oil temperature with the Harley Coolflow fan.

It is not designed to cool the engine or the oil.

It is designed to redirect the heat from the engine away from the rider and the passenger onto the ground.

Kevin

Here is a good link on what you can do to actually decrease engine and oil temperature (which will result in less actual heat, so the rider and passenger will feel less heat) ie. solution vs. bandaid

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...3QggFJ3nteFd_C

[DK Custom Products]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply!

I'm sure you noticed in my original message I said 'tech'....not mechanic! And, I had told them about already replacing the rockers earlier in the summer...so we start with replacing new parts...oh well, I'm not a mechanic.

I don't think oil pressure will end up being the problem...I do check that when riding...not frequently, but it is checked and there is always appropriate pressure (30-36), if I remember correctly.

I'm hoping they have it figured out when we get home. They should be able to test ride the trike...I noticed temps back in SD in the 50s and 60s this week....only 20 or so degrees difference than here last week!

I'll keep you in the loop

Bill

Hey Bill,

Yes, even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then.

Hope they get it resolved for you.

How much longer are you in AZ for?

Kevin

[BKtrike]

Hi Barry,

Yes, we have tested that. There is no perceptible decrease in oil temperature with the Harley Coolflow fan.

It is not designed to cool the engine or the oil.

It is designed to redirect the heat from the engine away from the rider and the passenger onto the ground.

Kevin

Here is a good link on what you can do to actually decrease engine and oil temperature (which will result in less actual heat, so the rider and passenger will feel less heat) ie. solution vs. bandaid

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...3QggFJ3nteFd_C

thank you Kevin

[BKtrike]

Hi Barry,

Yes, we have tested that. There is no perceptible decrease in oil temperature with the Harley Coolflow fan.

It is not designed to cool the engine or the oil.

It is designed to redirect the heat from the engine away from the rider and the passenger onto the ground.

Kevin

Here is a good link on what you can do to actually decrease engine and oil temperature (which will result in less actual heat, so the rider and passenger will feel less heat) ie. solution vs. bandaid

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...3QggFJ3nteFd_C

Thank you for the link. I watched the videos. I am also getting screaming eagle intake and tuner. Based on the video I may see some reduction in oil temp? Also getting 447 cam which may cancel out my reduction? Thnx Barry

[BILLIJAK]

Hey Bill,

Yes, even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then.

Hope they get it resolved for you.

How much longer are you in AZ for?

Kevin

Cheapest flight we found back home was on April 18th. Kind of wanted to stay till closer to May, but prices really went up after the middle of the month....so 18th of April it is (early morning flight).

Yes, I'm hoping it'll be ready to go. I'm leaving the Freewheeler here in AZ, so only other riding options are the Tri (in the shop) or my daughters 883 Low Sporty.....not a great rider for me!

[DK Custom Products]

Thank you for the link. I watched the videos. I am also getting screaming eagle intake and tuner. Based on the video I may see some reduction in oil temp? Also getting 447 cam which may cancel out my reduction? Thnx Barry

Hey Barry,

Looks like you have a 2020 Tri Glide. The unfortunate thing with those is that they do not have any real way to dissipate the heat from the oil. The only fins on the bike that help dissipate heat are on the cylinders and heads....but there is no oil flowing thru those.

So, by doing some, or all, of the things at this LINK for reducing heat in the engine (the actual metal), absent adding an oil cooler and/or filter relo, there is no good way to reduce oil temps down to the optimum area of 230 F.

Because, with time, the oil will always normalize to the internal metal temps.

Your SE intake and tuner may reduce engine temps by a few degrees, doubtful even 10 degrees. They are EPA compliant and the EPA wants High Temperatures (they don't care about the longevity or power production).

Yes, you're correct, the 447 cam is not going to do you any favors heat wise.

This may be a video that you find useful-



Kevin

[DK Custom Products]

Cheapest flight we found back home was on April 18th. Kind of wanted to stay till closer to May, but prices really went up after the middle of the month....so 18th of April it is (early morning flight).

Yes, I'm hoping it'll be ready to go. I'm leaving the Freewheeler here in AZ, so only other riding options are the Tri (in the shop) or my daughters 883 Low Sporty.....not a great rider for me!

Wow, a little over a month from now. It'll still be cold up there?

btw, our tentative plans for this summer are riding around Yellowstone sometime in July and having a day trip...BOTH ways over Beartooth Pass. That's still a bit of a ways for you...

Kevin

[BKtrike]

Hey Barry,

Looks like you have a 2020 Tri Glide. The unfortunate thing with those is that they do not have any real way to dissipate the heat from the oil. The only fins on the bike that help dissipate heat are on the cylinders and heads....but there is no oil flowing thru those.

So, by doing some, or all, of the things at this LINK for reducing heat in the engine (the actual metal), absent adding an oil cooler and/or filter relo, there is no good way to reduce oil temps down to the optimum area of 230 F.

Because, with time, the oil will always normalize to the internal metal temps.

Your SE intake and tuner may reduce engine temps by a few degrees, doubtful even 10 degrees. They are EPA compliant and the EPA wants High Temperatures (they don't care about the longevity or power production).

Yes, you're correct, the 447 cam is not going to do you any favors heat wise.

This may be a video that you find useful-



Kevin

Kevin, thank you for the time of a thorough response. When my warranty is up I will be adding some of your products. In the mean time I’ll do the best I can with Harley Factory Warranty compliance. I appreciate all the research you do , particularly for trikes, that you share on this site. Be Safe Barry

[BILLIJAK]

Wow, a little over a month from now. It'll still be cold up there?

btw, our tentative plans for this summer are riding around Yellowstone sometime in July and having a day trip...BOTH ways over Beartooth Pass. That's still a bit of a ways for you...

Kevin

No, the temps should...should be in the daytime 60s and cooler at night. But, can snow anytime in the midwest!

Love Beartooth! We've done it twice...but never on the trike. Daughter was 15 yrs old on our 1st trip...SD motorcycle learners permit... on a 650 Suzuki single...was that called a 'Bandit'? Stayed in Red Lodge, so up to Cooke City and back. Her first big trip, from NE SD there and back. Wife and I were on a 650 Yamaha V Star. This was back in 2007. Don't want to ride 1800 miles on either bike again! 2nd time was a solo trip on the Heritage in 2014 or 2015 I think?,....total blast!!

It's about 800+ miles to Red Lodge from home...hmmmm, 2 day ride out, ride the Pass, 2 days home...easy week! May have to keep July in play!!

Got a call from the HD service mgr today (Saturday). With nicer weather back home, they were able to put some miles on the Tri. He said the tech had bypassed the relocated filter and cooler, rode it around 40 miles and no clicking sound. He recommended the higher pressure pump. We were out on a ride, so I wasn't able to read back what you had told me in the previous post about oil pressure and start up, etc. The dealership is closed Sunday and Monday, so I told him I'd call back on Tuesday when I could be at the computer and read our conversation to him. Wait and see, I guess....and, I forgot to ask about my ESP coverage or estimated cost if not covered.

Thanks,

Bill

[BILLIJAK]

Sorry about the 2 week delay in the post....finally getting caught up on some TrikeTalk time!

[DK Custom Products]

No, the temps should...should be in the daytime 60s and cooler at night. But, can snow anytime in the midwest!

Love Beartooth! We've done it twice...but never on the trike. Daughter was 15 yrs old on our 1st trip...SD motorcycle learners permit... on a 650 Suzuki single...was that called a 'Bandit'? Stayed in Red Lodge, so up to Cooke City and back. Her first big trip, from NE SD there and back. Wife and I were on a 650 Yamaha V Star. This was back in 2007. Don't want to ride 1800 miles on either bike again! 2nd time was a solo trip on the Heritage in 2014 or 2015 I think?,....total blast!!

It's about 800+ miles to Red Lodge from home...hmmmm, 2 day ride out, ride the Pass, 2 days home...easy week! May have to keep July in play!!

Got a call from the HD service mgr today (Saturday). With nicer weather back home, they were able to put some miles on the Tri. He said the tech had bypassed the relocated filter and cooler, rode it around 40 miles and no clicking sound. He recommended the higher pressure pump. We were out on a ride, so I wasn't able to read back what you had told me in the previous post about oil pressure and start up, etc. The dealership is closed Sunday and Monday, so I told him I'd call back on Tuesday when I could be at the computer and read our conversation to him. Wait and see, I guess....and, I forgot to ask about my ESP coverage or estimated cost if not covered.

Thanks,

Bill

Hey Bill,

Sorry, not been on the forum for a bit.

Yeah, Beartooth is a blast. I believe it is still Mary's favorite road, and it is definitely in my all time top 10.

Not sure how they bypassed the oil cooler and filter relo.

But if they did, and there was no clicking, and then they put it back and there was clicking, that would be a good process of elimination...narrowing down the possible culprits.

If there is good pressure, then it must be reduced flow.

First thing I would do is change the filter. It does not happen often, but filters can get clogged enough to slow down flow, but not go into bypass mode...or the bypass could be bad too. But changing the filter would either fix it, or eliminate it as a source.

Actually, the first thing I would do is visually inspect all the hoses, making sure there are no kinks/restrictions...then the filter.

If it is neither of those, then bypass the oil cooler. I have never heard of a Jagg oil cooler having something break loose internally and restrict flow...but anything is possible.

If that still does not do it, there are only a couple of options left.

1. The hoses look good, but one of them is collapsed internally OR there is a chunk of something in one of them, restricting flow. Again, not something I've seen, but there is always that possibility.

2. The two adapter plates...the one where the oil filter used to go, and the one where the relocated oil filter mounts. There is nothing in either of those plates that restricts flow as they are made. But if something is in your oil passageways that broke loose and then got lodged in one of those, that would do it.

IF, and it is a big if, they really did bypass those and there was no clicking, then hooked them back up, changing nothing else, and the clicking returned, then it has to be one of the things I listed above.

Those additions (oil cooler and filter relo) put no extra workload on the oil pump. So unless they are going to give you the oil pump at no cost, it is not the answer.

Hope that helps.

Kevin

[ROAD DOG]

No, the temps should...should be in the daytime 60s and cooler at night. But, can snow anytime in the midwest!

Love Beartooth! We've done it twice...but never on the trike. Daughter was 15 yrs old on our 1st trip...SD motorcycle learners permit... on a 650 Suzuki single...was that called a 'Bandit'? Stayed in Red Lodge, so up to Cooke City and back. Her first big trip, from NE SD there and back. Wife and I were on a 650 Yamaha V Star. This was back in 2007. Don't want to ride 1800 miles on either bike again! 2nd time was a solo trip on the Heritage in 2014 or 2015 I think?,....total blast!!

It's about 800+ miles to Red Lodge from home...hmmmm, 2 day ride out, ride the Pass, 2 days home...easy week! May have to keep July in play!!

Got a call from the HD service mgr today (Saturday). With nicer weather back home, they were able to put some miles on the Tri. He said the tech had bypassed the relocated filter and cooler, rode it around 40 miles and no clicking sound. He recommended the higher pressure pump. We were out on a ride, so I wasn't able to read back what you had told me in the previous post about oil pressure and start up, etc. The dealership is closed Sunday and Monday, so I told him I'd call back on Tuesday when I could be at the computer and read our conversation to him. Wait and see, I guess....and, I forgot to ask about my ESP coverage or estimated cost if not covered.

Thanks,

Bill

I was at a Harley dealer today talking with the parts manager getting a new oil filter, told him I was putting on a oil filter relocation kit, He laughed asked were it mounted told him under the passenger foot board he said come look at this, go to the shop there sits a 2020 black tri with no motor in it and it has no warrantee. Harley said the aftermarket oil filter relocation kit and the oil cooler was to much for the little heart to handle.

Asked him who owned it or were it was from, would not answer me ? Im going let mine kit sit on the bench for a while see where this goes ?