Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

[Countryal]

Just got this in a Email.


Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Action Suit Over Air-Cooled Engine Heat Advances
by Jason Giacchino

There is an ever-increasing movement of folks who feel Harley-Davidson has taken the air-cooled engine about as far as it can go. It seems like, without fail, anticipation rises among industry insiders and consumers alike that H-D is finally going to deliver upon rumors of making the move to liquid cooling. Of course back in 2001 when the V-Rod was first announced, it almost appeared as though the air-cooled days were numbered, but in the decade that's followed, H-D has silenced its skeptics by proving the air-cooled Evolution engine and liquid-cooled Revolution design can share a product line in harmony.

Well, believe it or not, there are more than just technology hounds taking a stand against H-D's reluctance to adopt modern liquid cooling. A federal judge ruled that a class action lawsuit against Harley-Davidson, claiming Harley engines run so hot that they pose a constant danger of burning their operators/passengers, is going forward.

The sympathetic arbitrator sided with four bikers claiming their Harley-Davidson motorcycles were defective in design.

The complaint goes on to state that since 1999, Twin Cam engines between 88 and 110 cubic inches are capable of producing excess heat - enough in fact to cause clothing to catch fire in normal operating conditions.

The suit also alleges that the motors burn hot enough to pose a danger of burn injury to both riders and passengers. As if all of these concerns for personal safety aren't valid enough, the suit even contains evidence that such high operating temperatures causes premature engine wear and transmission failures in certain models.

"The Motor Company" was hoping the Eastern District of California court would dismiss the suit under state law, but this latest word that the U.S. District Judge sided with the biker complainants is big news indeed.

Of course, the allegations of a few riders will unlikely sway the entire manufacturing process of Harley-Davidson, but there is legitimate concern that as the suit passes into higher courts, other sympathetic judges may determine that such high operating temperatures are in fact design defects and hence affect not only future engine production, but retroactively demand updates to existing H-Ds via mandatory recalls.

Further complicating matters, the plaintiffs are relying upon undisputed evidence of Harley marketing larger engines, which are unable to meet emission standards in many states (one of those being California).

On the flip side, those opposed to the idea of H-D facing legal action for simply doing what they've always done claim that higher operating temperatures on air-cooled motors are to be expected and fall under the jurisdiction of common sense.

Could this finally be the end of air-cooled engines?

[1550vt]

I've heard about this in other places. It will be interesting to see how far they get with this. If anybody has ever received a dime from the MOCO as a result of a class-action suit...please raise your hand.

Others have tried on such issues as the initial run of the twin-cam with the cam-bearing issues and chain tensioners and other stuff and I don't think anybody has gotten far.....yet.

Stuff like this will eventually mean the demise of the venerable old v-twin air-cooled pushrod motor. I think anybody with any mechanical sense has to realize they have taken the motor as far as they can. He!!....Victory can make an air/oil-cooled v-twin and Harley is going to have to learn how, or switch to some version of the V-Rod drive train.

BUT....as long as these forums are open for anybody to read and do research.....yet keep on shelling out the BIG $ for a rattling toaster-oven and then spend more $ to try and make it run, the MOCO will just keep on selling them. If you don't want to risk getting burned alive....don't buy the coffee at McDonald's. That law-suit didn't go anywhere either. The buying public will eventually have to solve this and over time they will.

[msocko3]

I agree the writing is on the wall, sooner or later HD will have to make some changes. Before I made the changes to my 2010 I was getting 140 degree temps on the surface of my right pant leg when I checked with an IR temp gun. I know a guy who had a 2010 2 wheel Ultra who had his right ankle burnt while riding, he didn't come in contact with the exhaust it was the radiant heat that burned him.

[undertaker]

My tri glide overheated at 500 miles on it on a normal day and would not start for about an hour till it cooled down. I was pissed. They don't want to lose the Harley sound so they don't want to go to a liquid cooled motor. If they do what are the chances of a recall. Very slim.

[screwball]

The complaint goes on to state that since 1999, Twin Cam engines between 88 and 110 cubic inches are capable of producing excess heat - enough in fact to cause clothing to catch fire in normal operating conditions.

Uhhhh, the flash point of paper is 451*, I sincerely doubt it gets that hot "in normal conditions" Several manufacturers (S & S, Patric Racing etc are making 120+" air cooled engines. I would think the rear exhaust header could be rerouted, better heat shielding, or relocating the catalytic converter could do the trick. Ever notice where the pegs are located on a Boss Hoss??? About 2 1/2 inches from the exhaust manifold on a 350 CID V8 engine.

[10rhrk]

Been riding Harley's since the mid 90's. Never got burned except when I did something stupid like touching the exhaust while checking the oil...ect. I for one hope Harley keeps making the air cooled v-twin. If I want something with a Radiator, I'll ride in a car!

[10rhrk]

Changed my sig pic. I've been kicked off the Triglide. Got my Road King back though...

[pcmikey]

pcmikey here. I put fuelmoto ss headers, PCV and autotune, and Rush slipon 2.25" baffles on my 2010 tri glide ultra about 6-8 months ago. The low end torque is significantly improved, and the engine runs a lot cooler. Unlike the summer of 2010, I have not had the rear cylinder shut down this summer. My biggest gripe about the tri glide is the brakes. I had my 10000 mi service done 1000 miles early because of a warped front rotor. The dealer (Dothan Alabama) said that Harley would not honor the warranty---"normal wear and tear"). My next two-wheeler will be a Victory Vegas Jackpot. Harley has joined Calvin Klein, Chanel, and other over-priced products as merely a brand name. Quality is out the window.

PS I will keep my trike from now on. I have too much invested, and my wife of almost 50 years will ride it with me. It is sad to see an icon morph into a turd.

[msocko3]

pcmikey here. I put fuelmoto ss headers, PCV and autotune, and Rush slipon 2.25" baffles on my 2010 tri glide ultra about 6-8 months ago. The low end torque is significantly improved, and the engine runs a lot cooler. Unlike the summer of 2010, I have not had the rear cylinder shut down this summer. My biggest gripe about the tri glide is the brakes. I had my 10000 mi service done 1000 miles early because of a warped front rotor. The dealer (Dothan Alabama) said that Harley would not honor the warranty---"normal wear and tear"). My next two-wheeler will be a Victory Vegas Jackpot. Harley has joined Calvin Klein, Chanel, and other over-priced products as merely a brand name. Quality is out the window.

PS I will keep my trike from now on. I have too much invested, and my wife of almost 50 years will ride it with me. It is sad to see an icon morph into a turd.

I feel your pain, I plan on keeping both my HD's with no plans for buying a new one in the future. I can remember when I used to get excited about the new model roll out, now it comes an goes without much interest from me.

[oleman69]

I wondered how long it would take for something to bite h-d , started riding h-d in '77 on a '62 pan up til about 2.5 yrs ago when I bought '06 gl mt (32 yrs) back in '82-84 suzuki came uo with the calacade (hope i spelled it right) a v-4 water cooled 65 degree cyl angle that sounded damn near as close to h-d as you could get , close enough h-d filed suit but i thought back then that h-d should be building like it or the hammer would fall.

[Loner]

HDs and heat have been a given as long as I can remember (sometimes that's only 5 minutes, but usually it's longer). Most folks have heard about this, but I can attest to early HD heat. My first HD was a 1950 panhead that ran so hot when sitting still that on a dark night I could actually see the piston moving in the red hot rear cylinder. I know this has been passed around as a myth for years, but I can attest that it is true (at least one time for me).

Yea, I remember the burned leather boots, the shreded blue jeans from burning on the pipes, and I still have a bad knee from kick-starting the monsters.

Aah, memories - I wouldn't change a thing!

[pcmikey]

I feel your pain, I plan on keeping both my HD's with no plans for buying a new one in the future. I can remember when I used to get excited about the new model roll out, now it comes an goes without much interest from me.

I hear you. When I get a new model brochure, I toss it with out reading it.

Mike

PS You have 3 generations riding? My son rides, and my grandson will probably start as soon as his mom lets him. I have a 2009 Vulcan 900 custom that I am saving for him. I am going to replace it with a Victory Vegas Jackpot next Spring.

[KChopp]

The key is dress appropriatly for riding. I've see folks with shorts and sandals trying to ride a bike. That's just plain stupid!

[Greydog]

The lower fairings contribute a lot to engine heat due to restricted air flow. I remove mine for the summer months (20 minute job) and replace them in the late fall. Doesn't help in stop and go traffic but once you get rolling the bike cools down a lot faster.

[msocko3]

The lower fairings contribute a lot to engine heat due to restricted air flow. I remove mine for the summer months (20 minute job) and replace them in the late fall. Doesn't help in stop and go traffic but once you get rolling the bike cools down a lot faster.

I removed the doors on my lowers, it might have helped a little. I won't remove the lowers all together, I watched a friend pay for no lowers when we got caught in a hail storm while leaving Keystone SD. He had welts and a few places where it drew blood on his shins, my legs never felt it, just my chest because my shirt was open.

[1550vt]

Hey #3......good thing he had his lowers off. Skin and wounds on the body will heal. If the fairings get skinned....that's a paint job!

If anybody wants a real eye-opener....go out to the garage one pitch-black night and crank your Harley. Turn-out all the lights and after she warms-up....open the throttle a bit and hold it. The stuff that gets red and glowing may scare you to death.

[10rhrk]

Like I said before, I'd like some of the stuff you guy's are smoking!!! Never been around anybody dumb enough to ride in a hail storm or run their Harley in the garage until it get's red hot....Geeesssuuss...

[1550vt]

I think #3 would probably "explain" to you that he did not plan to ride in a hailstorm. Obviously....one gets caught out in the weather in places where a garage is not available, unless you ride around with yours behind a motor home.

In my case, I often tune my bikes in my garage with a blower on them and if you turn-out the lights....the exhaust will run cherry red.

10...you have a manner about you that just simply pisses me off. #3 may not like being called dumb, but that's between you and him. I am sure that he will tell you they were not riding around looking for that elusive hailstorm just to ride in.

[10rhrk]

I think #3 would probably "explain" to you that he did not plan to ride in a hailstorm. Obviously....one gets caught out in the weather in places where a garage is not available, unless you ride around with yours behind a motor home.

In my case, I often tune my bikes in my garage with a blower on them and if you turn-out the lights....the exhaust will run cherry red.

10...you have a manner about you that just simply pisses me off. #3 may not like being called dumb, but that's between you and him. I am sure that he will tell you they were not riding around looking for that elusive hailstorm just to ride in.

Maybe the word dumb was a bit much...sorry! I've been riding since 1967. Got caught twice in a hailstorm. Once was close enough to get under a bridge. second time, stopped, got off the bike and covered myself as best I could with my rain jacket. Can't believe anybody rode in a Hailstorm. that's dangerous!

Put me on your ignore list 1550, I'll do the same!

[msocko3]

Maybe the word dumb was a bit much...sorry! I've been riding since 1967. Got caught twice in a hailstorm. Once was close enough to get under a bridge. second time, stopped, got off the bike and covered myself as best I could with my rain jacket. Can't believe anybody rode in a Hailstorm. that's dangerous!

Put me on your ignore list 1550, I'll do the same!

When your in the middle of nowhere and there is zero cover you have 2 choices. 1. Stop along side the road and stand in it, or 2. keep riding, I'll take my chances riding. I'm not dumb, but you could call me a loose nut or at least some of the folks at the Harley dealer I used to do business with thought I was. Normally I'm the person who rolls up in weather that makes most just stay inside and call it a day. I've been through more than 1 hail storm, snow, sleet, I've lost count of the many downpours of rain complete with high winds and lightning I've ridden through.

This year my dad and I were caught in another hail storm while in SD, we were putting on our rain gear when dime size hail started. There was a guy who stopped and warned us not to go the direction we were headed because they had baseball sized hail. I can deal with dime size but baseball is a bit extreme for me so we turned tail and run from it.