A Couple of days with a Milwaukee-Eight Freewheeler...

[DK Custom Products]

Devin and I spent yesterday & today with Jack and his M8 Freewheeler.

We fitted quite a few variations of prototype Stage I Air Cleaners we've been working on. Then I spent some time riding it stock, gathering temperature data.

Today I rode it a bit more, gathering some more temperature data.

Then we spent 6 hours on the dyno, we did 49 pulls.

We tested 5 different Stage I Air Cleaner set-ups.

We tested 6 different tunes, both at WOT and at cruising.



Next week we will fully analyze the data and be posting some overlay charts.

I was expecting a lot out of the M8 power-plant.

From my previous couple of rides, plus looking at it on paper, I believed there was a lot of untapped potential, even in just a Stage I upgrade.

It exceeded my expectations! The increase in usable, everyday riding, power was surprising.


Here's a photo of Jack & Devin right before he started back home. He's riding home with a Stage I Air Cleaner, a Power Vision tune and a bunch more power!

Thank you Jack! Enjoyed our time together.

Kevin


P.S. I am not even allowed to post the following information on another forum...it upsets too many vendors. lol

Today, the Myth that the new HD air cleaners are somehow "Stage I" (ie. flow all the air needed) was ground into fine powder.

On the very first DK Stage I air cleaner we tested, WITHOUT even changing the factory tune, it produced an 11.94% increase in power!

 

[gerald martin]

freewheeler

Devin and I spent yesterday & today with Jack and his M8 Freewheeler.

We fitted quite a few variations of prototype Stage I Air Cleaners we've been working on. Then I spent some time riding it stock, gathering temperature data.

Today I rode it a bit more, gathering some more temperature data.

Then we spent 6 hours on the dyno, we did 49 pulls.

We tested 5 different Stage I Air Cleaner set-ups.

We tested 6 different tunes, both at WOT and at cruising.



Next week we will fully analyze the data and be posting some overlay charts.

I was expecting a lot out of the M8 power-plant.

From my previous couple of rides, plus looking at it on paper, I believed there was a lot of untapped potential, even in just a Stage I upgrade.

It exceeded my expectations! The increase in usable, everyday riding, power was surprising.


Here's a photo of Jack & Devin right before he started back home. He's riding home with a Stage I Air Cleaner, a Power Vision tune and a bunch more power!

Thank you Jack! Enjoyed our time together.

Kevin


P.S. I am not even allowed to post the following information on another forum...it upsets too many vendors. lol

Today, the Myth that the new HD air cleaners are somehow "Stage I" (ie. flow all the air needed) was ground into fine powder.

On the very first DK Stage I air cleaner we tested, WITHOUT even changing the factory tune, it produced an 11.94% increase in power!

so what happens to the factory warranty?

 

[vito]

Re: the myth. This puzzles me. H-D obviously has the means and resources to do a lot more of this kind of testing than any outsider, even Kevin. So, how is it that their aftermarket stuff performs so poorly?? I can only guess that it is cold fear of the EPA. Hopefully that will be changing. Meanwhile, many thanks to Kevin and company.

 

[DK Custom Products]

so what happens to the factory warranty?

Words seem to come so easily out of the mouths of folks at dealerships, and even sometimes when you call Customer Service at Corporate.

Many times they are spoken out of ignorance or deceptiveness.


Below are some facts related to aftermarket parts on Harley's:

The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act (P.L. 93-637) is a United States federal law, (15 U.S.C. § 2301 et seq.). Enacted in 1975, it is the federal statute that governs warranties on consumer products.

The Magnuson–Moss act was enacted by Congress in response to the widespread misuse by merchants of express warranties and disclaimers.

Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty.


Even written, as a part of the HD Warranty, which you can see HERE, is the following, which is in keeping with the Magnuson-Moss Act is how they address a limitation of the HD Warranty in regards to non HD parts:

Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail.


Most HD dealerships are honest, but if you run into an unscrupulous Dealership, or maybe they are just ignorant, have them read the above line to you out of their printed warranty...OR, find another dealership.



How it plays out in reality:

One side of the coin- Our experience has been that dozens upon dozens of dealerships will say that you have to buy HD parts to keep your warranty intact. This is a bold-face lie, flying directly in the face of Consumer Protection provided by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and their own written Warranty. It is most of the time told out of ignorance or deception to get you to buy HD parts.

The flip side of the coin is that these same dealerships, do warranty work everyday on bikes that have non-HD parts on them with no hassle to the consumer.

We have sold thousands and thousands of Stage I components, many hundreds of those bikes have had warranty work done. We have Never had a report of a dealership denying the warranty work because of our parts being on the bike.



Why is there a difference between what they say and what they do?

Most of the time they say what they do to try and get more sales of their parts.

When it comes time to do the warranty work, there is nothing in our Stage I components that can cause the need for repairs. As such, there is no basis for them to deny the warranty work.



When does warranty work get denied?

There are certainly parts that can be added to a Harley that have a likelihood of causing a failure. If that part is added, and it does cause the failure, the the dealership (and Harley Corporate) are within their rights to deny warranty repairs be made.

For that reason, we do not sell parts that have a likelihood of resulting in a warranty claim being denied.

A few of those parts are listed below:

Cams
Headwork
Pistons
Throttle bodies
Injectors
Trailer Hitches



Instead, we specifically work at making parts that will increase Safety, Comfort and Performance WITHOUT putting the Factory Warranty or Extended Service Plan at risk.

Kevin

 

[Papa Zook]

Good for Jack for getting up there and good for you Kevin for the great deal on the free stuff! He's gotta be grinning like a possum riding that little hot rod home.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Re: the myth. This puzzles me. H-D obviously has the means and resources to do a lot more of this kind of testing than any outsider, even Kevin. So, how is it that their aftermarket stuff performs so poorly?? I can only guess that it is cold fear of the EPA. Hopefully that will be changing. Meanwhile, many thanks to Kevin and company.

Simple business decisions:

As a manufacturer, the vehicles they produce must meet Federal, State, AND International requirements for emissions (air & sound) as well as other regulations.

Also, anything they produce for "add on" sales, is just that, more revenue to enhance their profitability for their shareholders.

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Good for Jack for getting up there and good for you Kevin for the great deal on the free stuff! He's gotta be grinning like a possum riding that little hot rod home.

Yeah, we had a great time visiting with him while we were working.


One thing I did not mention earlier...when I was riding it around getting some temperature readings...it was amazing what kind of MPG I was getting. Back road speeds, varying between 45-65 mph I was getting 45 MPG....I was riding it pretty easy, but still, that is insane good MPG.

On the interstate, speed varying between 70-75 mph, and popping up to 80 mph a couple of times, I was getting 38 mpg....again, really great MPG.

It will be interesting to see what he averages on the way home....we rode it just a little after getting the Stage I set up for him on the dyno, and it was lifting the front tire shifting into 2nd under hard, but not full throttle, acceleration.

Kevin

 

[vito]

Most HD dealerships are honest, but if you run into an unscrupulous Dealership, or maybe they are just ignorant, have them read the above line to you out of their printed warranty...OR, find another dealership.
How it plays out in reality:
One side of the coin- Our experience has been that dozens upon dozens of dealerships will say that you have to buy HD parts to keep your warranty intact. This is a bold-face lie, flying directly in the face of Consumer Protection provided by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and their own written Warranty. It is most of the time told out of ignorance or deception to get you to buy HD parts.


When does warranty work get denied?

There are certainly parts that can be added to a Harley that have a likelihood of causing a failure. If that part is added, and it does cause the failure, the the dealership (and Harley Corporate) are within their rights to deny warranty repairs be made.
Kevin

Add another reason. When I wrenched on cages it was common practice for dealers to bill both the customer and the factory for work. H-Ds have become so popular that many dealers are more like car dealers than the bike shops I grew up with so I suspect that some bad practices have come with that change.

 

[rhino 2]

It will be interesting to see what he averages on the way home....we rode it just a little after getting the Stage I set up for him on the dyno, and it was lifting the front tire shifting into 2nd under hard, but not full throttle, acceleration.
Kevin

Well he posted a few times that he was getting 55MPG before you worked on his trike..:Shrug:
So it would be interesting now...

 

[1dn5up]

Re: the myth. This puzzles me. H-D obviously has the means and resources to do a lot more of this kind of testing than any outsider, even Kevin. So, how is it that their aftermarket stuff performs so poorly?? I can only guess that it is cold fear of the EPA. Hopefully that will be changing. Meanwhile, many thanks to Kevin and company.

HD as in any other manufacturer, designs motors that will perform extremely well with out EPA attachments. They must also make that same motor perform and last long enough with the EPA stuff added.

Knowing that the consumer will modify the electronics only, which is the easiest way to go, with out changing or modifying the original footprint, will not be a warrantee issue.
In a way , they want you to do the allowable mods to get the full potential out of there product, thus a PR thinking out of the box idea. It's the way I look at it.

If the consumer does not want to mess with it, it must perform as is, and last. The MOCO tries its best to please everyone the best they can.

 

[1dn5up]

In an example of my last post,;

My Chevrolet HHR SS , 2.0L turbocharged motor, stock puts out 273 hp. Chevy offered a ecm upgrade, to increase it to 310hp. NO warrantee issues questioned. Think about it,

 

[Jack Klarich]

I am home, my exhaust temps never went over 306 @ 80 mph getting 42.6 mpg the intake temp never went over 110 WOW is all I can say and yes my mileage did go up a bit I expect it to level back out again, Thank you Kevin and Devin you guys are the BEST

 

[RedOregon]

I am home, my exhaust temps never went over 306 @ 80 mph getting 42.6 mpg the intake temp never went over 110 WOW is all I can say and yes my mileage did go up a bit I expect it to level back out again, Thank you Kevin and Devin you guys are the BEST

Over 42mpg at 80mph???

 

[rhino 2]

I am home, my exhaust temps never went over 306 @ 80 mph getting 42.6 mpg the intake temp never went over 110 WOW is all I can say and yes my mileage did go up a bit I expect it to level back out again, Thank you Kevin and Devin you guys are the BEST

So your MPG's dropped by 12.4 MPG's..
Before in a few earlier post's you said you were getting 55 MPG...:Shrug:

 

[vito]

Simple business decisions:

As a manufacturer, the vehicles they produce must meet Federal, State, AND International requirements for emissions (air & sound) as well as other regulations.

Also, anything they produce for "add on" sales, is just that, more revenue to enhance their profitability for their shareholders.

Kevin

Yabbut whuffo your aftermarket stuff makes more power than Harley's, when they can clearly outspend you for testing? (Rhetorical question)

 

[gerald martin]

warrnty

Words seem to come so easily out of the mouths of folks at dealerships, and even sometimes when you call Customer Service at Corporate.

Many times they are spoken out of ignorance or deceptiveness.


Below are some facts related to aftermarket parts on Harley's:

The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act (P.L. 93-637) is a United States federal law, (15 U.S.C. § 2301 et seq.). Enacted in 1975, it is the federal statute that governs warranties on consumer products.

The Magnuson–Moss act was enacted by Congress in response to the widespread misuse by merchants of express warranties and disclaimers.

Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty.


Even written, as a part of the HD Warranty, which you can see HERE, is the following, which is in keeping with the Magnuson-Moss Act is how they address a limitation of the HD Warranty in regards to non HD parts:

Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail.


Most HD dealerships are honest, but if you run into an unscrupulous Dealership, or maybe they are just ignorant, have them read the above line to you out of their printed warranty...OR, find another dealership.



How it plays out in reality:

One side of the coin- Our experience has been that dozens upon dozens of dealerships will say that you have to buy HD parts to keep your warranty intact. This is a bold-face lie, flying directly in the face of Consumer Protection provided by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and their own written Warranty. It is most of the time told out of ignorance or deception to get you to buy HD parts.

The flip side of the coin is that these same dealerships, do warranty work everyday on bikes that have non-HD parts on them with no hassle to the consumer.

We have sold thousands and thousands of Stage I components, many hundreds of those bikes have had warranty work done. We have Never had a report of a dealership denying the warranty work because of our parts being on the bike.



Why is there a difference between what they say and what they do?

Most of the time they say what they do to try and get more sales of their parts.

When it comes time to do the warranty work, there is nothing in our Stage I components that can cause the need for repairs. As such, there is no basis for them to deny the warranty work.



When does warranty work get denied?

There are certainly parts that can be added to a Harley that have a likelihood of causing a failure. If that part is added, and it does cause the failure, the the dealership (and Harley Corporate) are within their rights to deny warranty repairs be made.

For that reason, we do not sell parts that have a likelihood of resulting in a warranty claim being denied.

A few of those parts are listed below:

Cams
Headwork
Pistons
Throttle bodies
Injectors
Trailer Hitches



Instead, we specifically work at making parts that will increase Safety, Comfort and Performance WITHOUT putting the Factory Warranty or Extended Service Plan at risk.

Kevin

In Canada we do not have the Magnusson-moss protection. In fact we do not even have a lemon law. Of all the dealers in Canada I have phoned almost all have said changing any part to a non Harley part will void that portion of the warranty whether a dealer made the change or the customer made the change. Example putting a tuner on a trike (Harleys new pro street tuner will not fit the trikes) putting on a dual system oil cooler. Adding a Harley high flow air cleaner without a ecm calibration (Harley does not do calibrations any longer since July 1st 2016) and much more.

I myself had a warranty denied on a compensator because I had taken the self adjusting chain tensioner off and installed the HARLEY mechanical adjuster That was on a 2010 FLHXXX A few dealers said they would honor the warranty but only at their dealership and only if they preformed the work but they were few.

 

[DK Custom Products]

So your MPG's dropped by 12.4 MPG's..
Before in a few earlier post's you said you were getting 55 MPG...:Shrug:

I read his earlier posts about 55 mpg also. (I don't think he meant that he was getting that at 80 mph, but I'm not sure)

When I was riding it (still stock) on the back roads, I was getting 45 mpg...and while I was riding it easy (for me) I was riding in hilly terrain, varying my speeds between 45-65 mph. To me this was amazing...absolutely flabbergasting. But it was doing it.

I do believe if I was to ride at 40-45, no goosing the throttle, I could get up close to 55 mpg. Crazy, I know.

But that I was getting 45 mpg with a good amount of it being at 65 mph, I know there was plenty of room to get better mpg.

OHHHH, and here is the interesting thing...when we were on the dyno, we used a sniffer to track the AFR....we did this both stock and with the stage I A/C and tunes.

The M8, in Stock Condition, is NOT running overly lean like the 07-up Twin Cams do. It was pretty much hovering around 14.7.

There were a few other things that we observed on the M8 that were quite impressive. I am hoping to be able to go over all the charts (which Devin just handed me a few minutes ago) and have a complete report done by the end of this week.

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Over 42mpg at 80mph???

It boggles the mind how good of MPG this Freewheeler was getting. We did 49 pulls on the dyno, running about 45 miles total, most of the pulls at Wide Open Throttle (we did do some cruising pulls) and it averaged 34.8 mpg while on the dyno!

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

In Canada we do not have the Magnusson-moss protection. In fact we do not even have a lemon law. Of all the dealers in Canada I have phoned almost all have said changing any part to a non Harley part will void that portion of the warranty whether a dealer made the change or the customer made the change. Example putting a tuner on a trike (Harleys new pro street tuner will not fit the trikes) putting on a dual system oil cooler. Adding a Harley high flow air cleaner without a ecm calibration (Harley does not do calibrations any longer since July 1st 2016) and much more.

I myself had a warranty denied on a compensator because I had taken the self adjusting chain tensioner off and installed the HARLEY mechanical adjuster That was on a 2010 FLHXXX A few dealers said they would honor the warranty but only at their dealership and only if they preformed the work but they were few.

I would be very interested to see the Canadian Version of this document from Harley-

https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/procedure/54638/BLAISE/379239/en_US


I did a 10 minute google search and could not find one. I'm thinking maybe that it is the same worldwide.

You should have that document, or a Canadian version, in your paperwork that you received when you purchased your ride.

Unless a Canadian version is fundamentally different than the US version....???

Kevin

 

[gerald martin]

warranty

I would be very interested to see the Canadian Version of this document from Harley-

https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/procedure/54638/BLAISE/379239/en_US


I did a 10 minute google search and could not find one. I'm thinking maybe that it is the same worldwide.

You should have that document, or a Canadian version, in your paperwork that you received when you purchased your ride.

Unless a Canadian version is fundamentally different than the US version....???

Kevin

I believe everything you say about the warranties in the USA but here in Canada where I live (Okanogan valley Vernon) and all the discussions I have had with dealers in BC and Alberta I will have to stay with the things that will cool my bike off without taking a chance of voiding my warranty.
So far I have the DK tank lift, The Dk wind deflectors, the DK extended floor boards, The FL-xieds-10 from DK, the second oil cooler (jagg 10 row vertical in line with the original (Jagg cooler and xieds can be removed in minutes by the side of the road in case of breakdown) I am also going to install either the mighty mites or the cool masters from love jugs but I am waiting for the tests you posted you were going to do soon on them. I hope these things will cool my motor off enough to keep it running for a long time