Road*/Champion Rear Brakes

Anybody know the secret to getting a solid rear brake pedal - I installed Speed Bleeders (SB7100) so I am pretty sure there isn't any air in the system but still have to pump the pedal a few times to get solid pedal feel - does removing the residual valve (supplied by Champion) help - I am at my wits end on this issue - can somebody please HELP?

Roadie said:

Anybody know the secret to getting a solid rear brake pedal - I installed Speed Bleeders (SB7100) so I am pretty sure there isn't any air in the system but still have to pump the pedal a few times to get solid pedal feel - does removing the residual valve (supplied by Champion) help - I am at my wits end on this issue - can somebody please HELP?

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Be patient!
I thought I must have doing some thing wrong also.
You will eventually get it, I used a speed bleeder on mine and it still took a while.
After I got fluid to the brake bleeders I went back to manual bleeding. You are running two brakes off a master cylinder that was designed for one. I wish I could get a bigger one.
One of the forum members posted that he screwed the plunger adjuster in a little and got more pedal. ( use the search feature at the top of the page for champion trikes to see exactly what he said)
I cant lock up the brakes on my trike but they get a little better with wear.

pcombe said:

Be patient!
I thought I must have doing some thing wrong also.
You will eventually get it, I used a speed bleeder on mine and it still took a while.
After I got fluid to the brake bleeders I went back to manual bleeding. You are running two brakes off a master cylinder that was designed for one. I wish I could get a bigger one.
One of the forum members posted that he screwed the plunger adjuster in a little and got more pedal. ( use the search feature at the top of the page for champion trikes to see exactly what he said)
I cant lock up the brakes on my trike but they get a little better with wear.

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Very true! Many of us have the same complaint regarding rear braking. Those rear brake pads have to really be 'burned in' for them to offer their maximum efficiency. When conditions allow, I only use my rear brakes to speed up the process of getting those brake pads conditioned to the rotor. My rear braking has improved after doing so.

rmrc51 said:

Very true! Many of us have the same complaint regarding rear braking. Those rear brake pads have to really be 'burned in' for them to offer their maximum efficiency. When conditions allow, I only use my rear brakes to speed up the process of getting those brake pads conditioned to the rotor. My rear braking has improved after doing so.

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:Agree:

Something else to keep in mind?
The front brakes on a motorcycle supply about 70 percent of the stopping power.
My old tour glide has dual disc brakes on the front so that master cylinder is made to supply the front brakes with their stopping power. I have found this to still be true on my trike. Maybe we can suggest the bigger master cylinder to champion but I think it has already been done?
The brakes are made by Volkswagen so the parts are easy to come by.ThumbUp

I also sent Champion an email about this issue and here is their response: I must still have air in the system or a bad master cylinder (which worked just find prior to the conversion and it is only a little over three years old) - they also said THEY use a vacuum power bleeder and bleed both bleeders on each caliper - I guess I'll just have to keep trying to get a solid pedal and accept whatever I end up with.

Roadie said:

I also sent Champion an email about this issue and here is their response: I must still have air in the system or a bad master cylinder (which worked just find prior to the conversion and it is only a little over three years old) - they also said THEY use a vacuum power bleeder and bleed both bleeders on each caliper - I guess I'll just have to keep trying to get a solid pedal and accept whatever I end up with.

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Be patient!

You will eventually get it. Get someone to watch your master cylinder level for you and keep it topped up.
I was about to hit someone before I finally got it.
Crack the system at the splitter valve and get fluid to it to start with. This may or may not even have an anti-back flow on it. some did?

pcombe said:

Be patient!

You will eventually get it. Get someone to watch your master cylinder level for you and keep it topped up.
I was about to hit someone before I finally got it.
Crack the system at the splitter valve and get fluid to it to start with. This may or may not even have an anti-back flow on it. some did?

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On my Yamaha 1700 Road Star, moved the fluid tank up above the back wheels. Removed the valve.
It fixed the soft pedal problem. Will see if I can find the pic. and post it. They are connected with a hose.
May add Champion did not like it, it fixed the brakes. Not their design.

saab9k said:

On my Yamaha 1700 Road Star, moved the fluid tank up above the back wheels. Removed the valve.
It fixed the soft pedal problem. Will see if I can find the pic. and post it. They are connected with a hose.
May add Champion did not like it, it fixed the brakes. Not their design.

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saab9k - what did you use for the hose connection from the master cylinder to the fluid reservoir when you moved it up?

Roadie said:

saab9k - what did you use for the hose connection from the master cylinder to the fluid reservoir when you moved it up?

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A fuel line. Will look for picture.

saab9k said:

A fuel line. Will look for picture.

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Used a piece of black pipe in the middle. To get angles right.

Been like this for 2 year. No problems. Great brakes.

saab9k - well I raised the fluid res. and removed the valve and still no solid pedal or brakes and I'm sure there is no air in system - next step, leave fluid res. high and replace the valve and check for air again - if it doesn't work this time, I may be buying myself some explosives - I can't see how there could/should be so much of a difference between how the brakes worked before the conversion and now - had good pedal feel before but not now - can't figure why I'm having more of a problem with this than the rest of the Road Star trike world - bike is only 3 1/2 yrs old so I'm pretty sure it's not the master cylinder.

Remove rear wheels, open screw, let the brake fluid run thru a plastic line in a bottle with fluid in it. Keep adding fluid, so all air get out. Start on left wheel. pump brake pedal very slow, pause between pushing pedal, give fluid time to refill master cylinder.
It will work.

Roadie

Here's what I had to do on my Kawi/Champion. My bike had ABS brakes so I had to use the existing brake hose for the rear brake which was about a foot to long, I coiled the hose and attached it to the residual valve and bled through that connection. I bled each brake caliper and then I removed each caliper from the wheel and turned it upside down and bled from the other bleed screw. (My rear brakes have a bleed screw on each piston.) The dealer/installer that I ordered my kit through told me to remove my brake pedal from the splined shaft and rotate it up a couple of teeth on the spline to give you a little more throw on the brake pedal. My Kawasaki brake pedal and lever is one piece so I loosened the lock nut on the operating shaft of master cylinder and rotated the shaft out one turn and locked it down and my brakes are at least 100% better than the were.

saab9k said:

Remove rear wheels, open screw, let the brake fluid run thru a plastic line in a bottle with fluid in it. Keep adding fluid, so all air get out. Start on left wheel. pump brake pedal very slow, pause between pushing pedal, give fluid time to refill master cylinder.
It will work.

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:Agree: it will, Do you have any pedal? mine didn't feel the same as it did before I converted it

I had assumed that you had a plastic hose on the bleed valve running into a bottle that had fluid in it.
That way you don't suck air back into the system. Don't crack the bleeder any more than you have to so you don't suck air around the threads on the bleeder valve.
Keep the master cylinder full of fluid, you can add to it from the bottle you have your hose in.
It's gonna get messy if your anything like the rest of us.
It's gonna feel like you are beating a dead horse.

pcombe said:

:Agree: it will, Do you have any pedal? mine didn't feel the same as it did before I converted it

I had assumed that you had a plastic hose on the bleed valve running into a bottle that had fluid in it.
That way you don't suck air back into the system. Don't crack the bleeder any more than you have to so you don't suck air around the threads on the bleeder valve.
Keep the master cylinder full of fluid, you can add to it from the bottle you have your hose in.
It's gonna get messy if your anything like the rest of us.
It's gonna feel like you are beating a dead horse.View attachment 19638

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It will work. Have done it on cars, trucks, the last was a International tractor with hydraulic.
brakes. ran 2 bottles thru, brakes was hard then. You can recover some of the fluid from the bottled. If it is clean. and reuse it.

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My Honda Valkyrie will also have fluid tank up high, must be above brakes on rear wheels. Simple physics fluid will fill up below when located at higher than calibers..

I have a champion Road Star kit on order. When researching bleeders there was a long and a short size. The nose and threads were longer on the long one. Maybe a short one, SB7100S, may seal out air better at 1/4 turn open. I think that may be the problem in all the bad reviews I saw. Let me know if that works.

+1 on rotating the brake pedal up a bit on the splines. Also try this. Pump the rear brake pedal and hang a heavy object (10-15lbs) from a wire or rope, off the brake pedal overnight. That can sometimes help believe it or not.

This is a fix forever. Some people don't understand. The reservoir has to be the highest point for free flow. The valve on master cylinder is not a fix there will work all the time.

Remove it. Use 2 hoses and a piece of steel tubing, bleed it one time and smile.

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Champion should send me a T shirt for a permanent fix for brake problem on Yamaha/champion brake fix.

Hook hose to upper bleeder, make sure hose is in brake fluid.

It will bleed all air out, gravity feed fluid from reservoir.

Reading thru these posts reminded me of the problem I also had with my RSV/Tri-Wing conversion. While the drum brakes worked so-so I wasn't happy with the braking effort to stop the bike so I bought a rotor and caliper set from a salvage yard off a Crown Victoria. A early Mustang disc brake set up would of been better but next to impossible to find in my area not to mention costs if found. I found a Ford Crown Victoria backing plate that very closely matched the drum brakes backing plate so used that. Bottom line was the Crown Vic's brakes worked much better than the Ford drums Tri-Wing uses. STILL I wasn't completely satisfied as I knew they could be better. The real solution was changing out the master for something that had more volume. The bikes stock master cylinder just didn't push enough fluid to fully expand those bigger calipers.
Then I started to look for a larger master. Not knowing what, if any other bike masters would work I went to Jegs website looking for a solution. I ended up buying this one -- http://www.jegs.com/i/Wilwood/950/260-5920/10002/-1. I did have to adapt it to fit the area and mounting to match the bikes pedal mechanism but the work was well worth it. Once these changes were made I had solid brakes with awesome stopping power.
Perhaps the guys with the Road Star/ Champion conversions could do something similar to get the results needed.
Larry