4.3 trike steering question

butchvoss · Jul 22, 2013

I have been building a trike now for about three years. all is well except the steering is very hard to turn. Im thinking i screwed up the steering geometry as i think i need to be spoon fed on this. I have 4 inches of trail. I mean i really have to put in muscle to turn this thing and muscle is something i lack lol. I will take some pictures in morning and add to post. thanks in advance

Sacred Steel · Jul 23, 2013

4" of trail on a trike is too much. I believe the ideal trail is 1.5" - 2". What kind of front end do you have on it. If it's a springer then you can correct it with different rockers. If it's a regular front end then you may need to bring the rake in with raked trees.

Marty · Jul 23, 2013

what degree of rake do you have now?

butchvoss · Jul 24, 2013

Hi, and thanks so much for the info. I do not know the rake as i just put an angle gauge on a motorcycle and put the same angle on trike. i know i really messed up and i do not mind buying a new neck tube and weld it in. I just do not understand how to get rake measurment

The forks are off a 1986 GL1200 with air tubes ??

here is the front end. Please try not to make fun of trike as im a beginner at this lol.

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Sacred Steel · Jul 24, 2013

Any way to get bigger pics? Looks like a standard 28-30 degree rake but hard to tell.
Also, if it's real hard to turn maybe you have the stem nut too tight? No grease in the neck bearings? Just a thought.

butchvoss · Jul 24, 2013

Ive checked the tq Ive tried loose and tight. maybe just the nature of the beast. When i back up, its hard to keep the wheel from turning side ways if tire hits a little rut. Thanks

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Mo Lee · Jul 26, 2013

I did the same thing, set an angle gauge on the original 83 Wing and then put the neck on the trike at the same angle (35 degrees if I remember right). Mine steers hard at speed which is probably a good thing and if you back up too fast you have to hang onto the handle bars to keep it from following grooves. Overall I am surprised how well mine does handle. I had no previous trike experience before building and riding mine so I don't know how it should ride. I'm pretty sure I have more weight up front than you do so I'm betting your problem is not your rake.

butchvoss · Jul 26, 2013

well thank you for the info. I wonder if i installed wider handle bars for more leverage,lol. Yes is looks like you have way more weight up front then i do.............

.I do remember that after i installed neck and went to add forks that my neck was set up for ball bearings and not cone bearings. I could not install cone bearings so went to ball. now a year later im finding out all are using cone bearings. Maybe i need to weld in a new neck that accepts cone bearings. Any thought people. thanks again

DEATH_INC. · Jul 27, 2013

butchvoss said:
I have 4 inches of trail.

Look at what sacred steel said. 4" is too much, and it'll always be heavy with this much. The requirement of a trike/sidecar/car etc is very different than what a bike needs.
You need to alter/replace the triple clamps to move the wheel forward, thus reducing the trail. Changing the rake (steering head angle) won't do it.
Trail is the difference between the point that a line through the steering head hits the ground, and where the tyre(tire) contact patch center is.

DEATH_INC. · Jul 27, 2013

Mo Lee said:
I did the same thing, etc

The reason you get away with it is because of the leverage you get from amount of pullback on your bars. It's like having 'em 6' wide :xzqxz:

butchvoss · Jul 28, 2013

DEATH_INC. said:
Look at what sacred steel said. 4" is too much, and it'll always be heavy with this much. The requirement of a trike/sidecar/car etc is very different than what a bike needs.
You need to alter/replace the triple clamps to move the wheel forward, thus reducing the trail. Changing the rake (steering head angle) won't do it.
Trail is the difference between the point that a line through the steering head hits the ground, and where the tyre(tire) contact patch center is.

ok so i need to move wheel forward aw , thanks so much. I told ya im dense .lol. thanks again

Sacred Steel · Jul 28, 2013

Your either going to have to put a springer front end on it and correct the trail through the rockers or get a set of raked trees to bring in the trail. Maybe you can use this rake and trail calculator to figure out the degree of rake in the trees if you go that route. Fill in all the measurements and play around with the triple tree rake numbers till you come out with the correct trail. Then get a set of trees with that rake.

RB Racing Rake and Trail Calculator

butchvoss · Jul 29, 2013

well guys i fixed it. I took the lower part of the fork holder ( the part that has the neck shaft welded to it. ) cut it and added 3/4 of an inch, i then tapered the top part that goes over the neck pipe with a reamer. I have now an 1-3/4 trail. from five inch to 1 and 3/4. I just needed to be spoon fed on what way to move wheel. I was confused from rake to trail. Its like night and day . like power steering. and i can back up now in control. Ive only been up to maybe 30 mph and for now i am so happy i have wood. Now to finish it up and register and insure. this trike will be my rig for going to town for supplys.

MANY THANKS TO YOU FOLKS THAT TOOK THE TIME TO HELP ME

Sacred Steel · Jul 29, 2013

Glad you got it worked out but I would really like to see what you did. Do you have any pics of the process? That neck stem is the only connection between you and the pavement so I hope you did it right.

butchvoss · Jul 30, 2013

Sacred Steel said:
Glad you got it worked out but I would really like to see what you did. Do you have any pics of the process? That neck stem is the only connection between you and the pavement so I hope you did it right.

what i did was make a quickie jig to hold its alignment forks with the neck stem. I then cut it directly in half half, slide it out 3/4 of in inch minus cutting blade width, locked it in and tiged it up. . I added a 3/16 plate to it for reinforcement and filled it in pretty well. I am a pretty good welder and i feel confident in the repair. . The top part of the neck tee i just put a light angle taper in the hole that slips on to tube. When i put the rest of the front end shrouds and stuff it should run out nice. I honestly could not get over difference of handling. No pictures of process, it was one of those moments after studying what had to be done and thinking this cant be that hard and jumping in to it. .I have no fear of the weld repair failing but the angle of the forks look threatening like they should bend from the weight at first bump lol

thanks again

skuuter · Aug 12, 2013

You basically made a set of "Raked Trees".....

Marty · Aug 15, 2013

have you checked alignment. rear wheels should be straight, toe in zero and the measurement from each rear wheels center to steering head shoul be the same. does it steer easier in in one direction, if so which way?

butchvoss · Aug 22, 2013

Marty said:
have you checked alignment. rear wheels should be straight, toe in zero and the measurement from each rear wheels center to steering head shoul be the same. does it steer easier in in one direction, if so which way?

.
Ive run it only very short hops. I took lots of time making sure the measurements from rear to front are correct when building. I have built several smaller electric trikes while in florida and recieved a great learning curve on rear alignment. I just never ran into the hard steering problem i had on this one. On my short hops there is no different reaction from right or left turns.. and no pulling.

Im sure i will run into some problems before im done, like the water pump. I used a morroso electric pump but because the radiator is lower than front of engine it keeps getting air locked. I will put on a
EWP
EWP80 (12V) ELECTRIC WATER PUMP - PART No: 8005

Im still not happy with rear brakes yet . the residual valve helped but not the answere for me.

I added a front cowl and now to find a windshield and guages
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butchvoss · Jun 10, 2014

update. Ive had the trike on the road now for a month. Little bugs here and there, The steering is working but i think this winter i will build a set of leading axle forks. I have a very slight drift to the right. Kind of annoying on back roads but not so on highways. Thinking crown of road?? All in all very satisfied with trike. passed a NH sticker with no problems, the new 17 mm cylinder hand brake solved the rear brake problem.Now trike stops super. will update and problems as they happen.

skuuter · Jun 11, 2014

butchvoss said:
update. Ive had the trike on the road now for a month. Little bugs here and there, The steering is working but i think this winter i will build a set of leading axle forks. I have a very slight drift to the right. Kind of annoying on back roads but not so on highways. Thinking crown of road?? All in all very satisfied with trike. passed a NH sticker with no problems, the new 17 mm cylinder hand brake solved the rear brake problem.Now trike stops super. will update and problems as they happen.

GREAT News...sounds like the "worst" is behind You now.....ThumbUp