Northstar trike project

[Easyrider54]

The Northstar project is started! As noted in another post, I bought a donor car a couple of weeks ago. I finally got the engine out of it yesterday. For those not familiar with the Caddy platform, the engine, transaxle tranny, hubs, suspension, etc are all mounted on the engine cradle. The body is bolted to the engine cradle/subframe with six bolts. Take the six bolts out, and lift the body off. Well, sort of... That power train is really jammed in there! It is very difficult to work on, and there must be 2 miles of wire in that car! I am a bit concerned about sorting all of that out, and getting the engine to run, and the tranny to shift outside of the car.

However...no guts, no glory!!!

Here's the engine in the car.



Here s my concept drawing. It is pretty basic, but I am trying to learn CAD (Computer Assisted Drawing), or as I prefer to call it, CHD (Computer Hindered Drawing). It's a work in progress, but I hope it conveys the concept. It is drawn to scale, 8 foot wheelbase, 10 feet overall.



Here is my first Mickey Mouse mock-up.



Another view. I am pretty encouraged by this. The proportions are pretty damn manageable, width is 5'9", and as I said, overall length is 10'.



I haven't weighed the power train yet, I hope to get that done tomorrow, at the local grain elevator. My best guess is in the neighbourhood of 700#. If you look at the location of the engine relative to the rear wheels, I am predicting that the weight will be fairly evenly distributed between the 3 wheels. Pulling a number out of thin air, if the completed trike weighs 1100#, that will put 366# on each wheel, without riders.

My Harley Road King weighs 650#, on 2 wheels, which equates to 325# per wheel. The Harley develops 65 horsepower. The Northstar develops 300 hp. Draw your own conclusions...

I would really appreciate feedback and advice. For starters, if anyone knowledgeable has suggestions for frame material, I would be very interested. I am debating DOM tube vs Extruded. Thanks for looking.

Glen

 

[Papa Zook]

Subscribed! Gonna enjoy watching this build.

 

[Easyrider54]

Wellll....I weighed the Northstar today. Man, was I out on my estimate! 1200 pounds!!!! Yikes!!!! Everything I read on the internet suggested somewhere in the 700# range, but apparently that was just the engine. Who would have thought...something on the net turning out to be bull...t.

That sort of makes me sit up and revisit my loosely laid plans regarding frame material. I was thinking of using 1 1/2" x 3/16 DOM tubing, thinking that was going to be overkill, but now I'm not so sure.

Power train and engine cradle.....1200#

100' tubing in frame @ 2.65#......265#

3 wheels....................................120#

Forks..........................................40#

Body panels.................................60#

Me and the Bride.........................350#

Total........................................2035#

That is going to take some serious frame to survive a pothole! I don't know whether to go with heavier tubing, or go to a girder type frame to stiffen it up.

I am not too worried about the cost, I talked to the local steel guy, and the above mentioned 1 1/2"x3/16" DOM is right around $3/foot, so a little extra is really negligible. I really need some advice here. I am hoping not to have to hire an engineer...

 

[champsman97045]

My Rewaco used a girder frame and was very sturdy, considering your weight and hp a girder would be the only way to go.
Keep us posted as we all like build projects.

 

[Lucky]

Gonna be great watching this happen. GOOD LUCK!

 

[cavie]

I'm gonna watch

 

[stacebg]

Wellll....I weighed the Northstar today. Man, was I out on my estimate! 1200 pounds!!!! Yikes!!!! Everything I read on the internet suggested somewhere in the 700# range, but apparently that was just the engine. Who would have thought...something on the net turning out to be bull...t. That sort of makes me sit up and revisit my loosely laid plans regarding frame material. I was thinking of using 1 1/2" x 3/16 DOM tubing, thinking that was going to be overkill, but now I'm not so sure. Power train and engine cradle.....1200# 100' tubing in frame @ 2.65#......265# 3 wheels....................................120# Forks..........................................40# Body panels.................................60# Me and the Bride.........................350# Total........................................2035# That is going to take some serious frame to survive a pothole! I don't know whether to go with heavier tubing, or go to a girder type frame to stiffen it up.

I am not too worried about the cost, I talked to the local steel guy, and the above mentioned 1 1/2"x3/16" DOM is right around $3/foot, so a little extra is really negligible. I really need some advice here. I am hoping not to have to hire an engineer...

depending on how you gusset the frame..imho the tubing is way overkill..

in comparison some of the big touring bike weigh around 800# or so... them frames are about an inch dia tube with about .090 wall ..eventhe v8 choppers (with the weight more evenly distibuted . i am not an egineer but i would bet 1-1/2 x .188 would be about 4 or 5 times as stong something you may want to consider i have a commercial pipe bender i can bend 1-1/4 and 1-1/2 sch 40 pipe with no problem .140 and .145 wall, quite easily but if i go to sched 80 .191-.200 wall my bender struggles some... i find dom and black pipe are pretty much the same bending

just for comparison

a touring bike weighs about 800# , frames are about 1" with about .090 wall plus or minus on both and not a whole lot of triangulation...

while yourtrike is close to 3 times the weight, 1200 is all on the back wheels / suspention...so the rest of your weight is distributed comparable to the bike

if it were me i would go 1-1/2 x .125 and never think twice...

hope i explained that so you get the idea

also wondering if you have looked into registering it... seem there was a guy in canada that after building his trike and several yr of fighting with the powers that be he gave up trying to register it

 

[Teskimo]

I'll be watching how your big trike turns out.

Looks like you will have a real tire screamer.....

 

[Illini_Triker]

Have you looked at chrome Moly tube that's what we use on our race cars

 

[Easyrider54]

p

depending on how you gusset the frame..imho the tubing is way overkill..

in comparison some of the big touring bike weigh around 800# or so... them frames are about an inch dia tube with about .090 wall ..eventhe v8 choppers (with the weight more evenly distibuted . i am not an egineer but i would bet 1-1/2 x .188 would be about 4 or 5 times as stong something you may want to consider i have a commercial pipe bender i can bend 1-1/4 and 1-1/2 sch 40 pipe with no problem .140 and .145 wall, quite easily but if i go to sched 80 .191-.200 wall my bender struggles some... i find dom and black pipe are pretty much the same bending

just for comparison

a touring bike weighs about 800# , frames are about 1" with about .090 wall plus or minus on both and not a whole lot of triangulation...

while yourtrike is close to 3 times the weight, 1200 is all on the back wheels / suspention...so the rest of your weight is distributed comparable to the bike

if it were me i would go 1-1/2 x .125 and never think twice...

hope i explained that so you get the idea

also wondering if you have looked into registering it... seem there was a guy in canada that after building his trike and several yr of fighting with the powers that be he gave up trying to register it

Thanks for the input, stacebg, that is the sort of opinion I have been hoping for. Since posting the last, I have spent several hours sitting looking at the power train, and taking measurements. I think that I agree with you now, after thinking it through. The engine frame supports the weight of the power train, as you point out, and the Caddy suspension carries it all.

The trike frame's job is to hold the front end, not carry the entire load. I agree that triangulation will be the key. I have spent some time on my Computer Hindered Drawing program, and I am not there yet, but I can certainly see progress.

I have not made a final decision, because I don't have to yet, but I am past the "deer in the headlights" that I was for the first while after finding out how heavy the power train is. As for bending heavier tubing, I am not sure that will be a problem. My current frame plan doesn't involve much bending, I am trying to minimise it, and maximise straight lines, and triangles, properly gusseted, as you suggest. Because I am building this around an existing engine frame, I have some constraints on frame design, such as working around the existing suspension.

As for licensing, I have begun studying the process. I haven't put a lot of time into the licensing/insurance thing, because I am still considering whether I can manage this project, both from a technical and financial standpoint. I find myself in the chicken/egg argument with myself, whether I want to put the effort into the license issues first, or commit to the project first. I am confident now that I can pull this off, and figure out the engineering. I am pretty damn good at problem solving, but I can't do it quickly. I will spend many more hours sitting and looking at the thing, measuring, and tweeking plans.

In the end, I will get it, if past performance is any indication.

As for chrome moly, Illini_Triker, I have considered it. One of the concerns with it is that when it is overstressed, it tends to break, whereas DOM tends to bend. Another consideration is that moly does not appear to be available locally. Welding is another issue, although I will likely get a licensed welder to TIG weld the frame anyway. All of the above info is BS, I have no knowledge of moly, other than what I have read on the net. I would be real interested in hearing more about it, if you would care to educate me...

 

[vw driver]

Here's one.

 

[stacebg]

understand the chicken an egg i would hate to invest all all the time and money and not be able to register it!
as for the chrome molley ... very strong.. very light... and you guessed it... very expensive....
for racing its great... but in this case pretty much a big waist of $ you may even need to ADD some weight to the front end to keep it on the ground..

there will probably be some debate on this but i have allways used mig for the frame work ..i learned to weld in 73 and i built my first in 79 and between trikes an custom one off sidecar mounts there are a lot of our welds out there never had a failure..

and fabrication / welding is what keeps the lights on an my belly full not so sure about the roof over my head... especially if we get anything like upstate NY
been accused of being a saturday morning backyard armchair welder more than once

 

[John Luciano]

I too would have checked out the reg and insurance law first. I know here in CT you would be hard pressed to get it on the road with a legal plate. Only way would be a dealer. Did not look to see we're you are located. I have seen a few strange contraptions but most are dealers or they reg in one state and drive it here. Can't wait to see how you make out.

 

[stacebg]

I too would have checked out the reg and insurance law first. I know here in CT you would be hard pressed to get it on the road with a legal plate. Only way would be a dealer. Did not look to see we're you are located. I have seen a few strange contraptions but most are dealers or they reg in one state and drive it here. Can't wait to see how you make out.

???
dont think there would be too big a deal if a mc frame / neck was used with id numbers. it would be registerd as a composite 3 wheeler really

 

[Easyrider54]

It's not that I don't have confidence in my welding skills, stacebg, I just think that it will improve my chances of passing a safety inspection if I have the frame welding done by a journeyman. Like you, I have been burning iron for 40 years. I am a farmer, or rather recently retired farmer, and while I didn't weld for pay, I do have a long history of fixing farm machinery, and fabbing a wide variety of stuff.

One of the things I hope to accomplish with this project is to learn some new skills, though. I want my trike to have a sheet metal body, without too many sharp corners and angles, so I plan to make an English wheel, bead roller, and stretcher/shrinker so that I can do compound curves and bends. Stay tuned.

As for license and insurance, it's not that I haven't looked into it, I just haven't got official approval for anything yet. I live in Manitoba, Canada, about 100 miles north of the border with North Dakota. Transport Canada is the federal agency responsible for motor vehicle safety. I have read the relevant information that they make available on their website, and it appears to be fairly straight forward. As for insurance, vehicle insurance in Manitoba is provided by Manitoba Public Insurance, a provincial crown corporation, which means that it is an independent government owned corporation, with the monopoly to sell vehicle insurance.

I totally understand that this will be a hellish concept for my American friends here and elsewhere, but it works for us. Anyway, I have talked to the guy responsible for home built and altered vehicles, he said that the easiest way to get a home built vehicle insured was to build it from a set of plans stamped by a Professional Engineer. He made a point of saying that is not the only way, just the easiest. We left it a that. I will talk to him again before too long, and Transport Canada as well.

I posted a thread on this forum a few weeks ago, inquiring if any engineered plans exist for trike projects, but I got no responses. I have not contacted a professional engineer, but my assumption is that it will be prohibitively expensive. In the end, what I expect to hear from the insurer is that if I pass inspection, they will insure me, but the lack of engineering will be reflected in the premium. So far, all I have invested in the trike is $500, and some of my time. I have not yet spent any money on tubing, but I might, before I sort out the license/insurance issues. 1.5"X.125" DOM locally is only $1.35/foot, so for another couple of hundred bucks, I can go ahead and play some more. That's pretty cheap entertainment, in my book, even if I never finish it.

This project is more about the challenge and entertainment value of building it than riding it, for the time being. Of course, I want a trike that I can ride, for sure, but that's only part of the fun, and I'm sure some of you understand. If I just wanted a trike, I'd put a kit on my Road King.
Glen

Oh, PS, thanks for the interest, folks, it is greatly appreciated, please keep it coming!

 

[Illini_Triker]

You might look at something like some of these with price around 3000 to 4000 on some would be a good start

https://www.viethconsulting.com/members/classifieds3.php?org_id=BTWI&cat=204975

 

[pcombe]

Subscribed! Gonna enjoy watching this build.

ME TOO!:Agree:

 

[stacebg]

It's not that I don't have confidence in my welding skills, stacebg, I just think that it will improve my chances of passing a safety inspection if I have the frame welding done by a journeyman. Like you, I have been burning iron for 40 years. I am a farmer, or rather recently retired farmer, and while I didn't weld for pay, I do have a long history of fixing farm machinery, and fabbing a wide variety of stuff. One of the things I hope to accomplish with this project is to learn some new skills, though. I want my trike to have a sheet metal body, without too many sharp corners and angles, so I plan to make an English wheel, bead roller, and stretcher/shrinker so that I can do compound curves and bends. Stay tuned.
As for license and insurance, it's not that I haven't looked into it, I just haven't got official approval for anything yet. I live in Manitoba, Canada, about 100 miles north of the border with North Dakota. Transport Canada is the federal agency responsible for motor vehicle safety. I have read the relevant information that they make available on their website, and it appears to be fairly straight forward. As for insurance, vehicle insurance in Manitoba is provided by Manitoba Public Insurance, a provincial crown corporation, which means that it is an independent government owned corporation, with the monopoly to sell vehicle insurance. I totally understand that this will be a hellish concept for my American friends here and elsewhere, but it works for us. Anyway, I have talked to the guy responsible for home built and altered vehicles, he said that the easiest way to get a home built vehicle insured was to build it from a set of plans stamped by a Professional Engineer. He made a point of saying that is not the only way, just the easiest. We left it a that. I will talk to him again before too long, and Transport Canada as well. I posted a thread on this forum a few weeks ago, inquiring if any engineered plans exist for trike projects, but I got no responses. I have not contacted a professional engineer, but my assumption is that it will be prohibitively expensive. In the end, what I expect to hear from the insurer is that if I pass inspection, they will insure me, but the lack of engineering will be reflected in the premium. So far, all I have invested in the trike is $500, and some of my time. I have not yet spent any money on tubing, but I might, before I sort out the license/insurance issues. 1.5"X.125" DOM locally is only $1.35/foot, so for another couple of hundred bucks, I can go ahead and play some more. That's pretty cheap entertainment, in my book, even if I never finish it. This project is more about the challenge and entertainment value of building it than riding it, for the time being. Of course, I want a trike that I can ride, for sure, but that's only part of the fun, and I'm sure some of you understand. If I just wanted a trike, I'd put a kit on my Road King.
Glen
Oh, PS, thanks for the interest, folks, it is greatly appreciated, please keep it coming!

i think the farmers are some of the best "ham an eggers" as my friend says... we always make do with what there is at the time.... yup i learned on the farm too...
when i was a kid dad needed new bearings for a shaft on a corn chopper... they didnt come an didnt come.... corn was ready to be cut... two blocks of oak split in two and a grease fitting...and back to cutting.. course after the corn was cut bearings showed up... quite a few yrs later he sold the chopper and gave the buyer the new bearing that were still on the wall... oak was still fine....my first go cart had oak bearings too!

i would be willing to bet if you get stretchers, shrinker, an a wheel.... you will spend many many many hr just playing even after you get em figured out... my friend did just that... and that why i have none of those... but i know where i can use em for little quickies..,,

 

[ctg2]

http://skullcrushertrikesny.blogspot.com/ This is a guy who builds trikes using FWD cars

 

[Easyrider54]

The Northstar project is on hold for the winter. My wife and I leave for the beach in California next week, and are gone till spring. We enjoy some American hospitality, and escape the Canadian winter. I expect to return in April, all full of P+V, eager to dive into all of my projects again, with renewed energy. Thanks for following the thread so far, and have a Merry Xmas!