Catch can mod on stock 2017 air box not working out- Removed it back to stock

[Bill G]

Catch can mod on stock 2017 air box not working out- Removed it back to stock

A while back I posted the mod I did in the below pic's . I installed a catch can I purchased from DK Customs on the breather lines on my stock 2017 M8 air cleaner. I simply plugged the back hole in the stock air filter with a rubber plug. I then added a longer piece of tubing to the catch can as seen bellow (pretty simple mod).

Well, I removed it see stated reason below.

For what ever reason the front factory rubber nipple that snaps on to the front breather bolt (front cylinder) would weep oil around it out of it and run down over time into air box bottom. The rear rubber nipple on the back (back cylinder) did not. I cleaned several times made sure both breather bolts in to the cylinders were torqued correctly. Also verified leak several times around front nipple it was not around the breather bolt it was sealed and ok.

My thinking is the added restriction or back pressure from the longer piece of tubing going to the catch can or even the restriction of the vapor passing through the catch can or both may have been causing this issue, I don't know for sure ?? The nipples snap on the breather bolts ok but I would not say there supper tight from the factory by any means.

I put the breather system back to stock configuration and the issue is gone. No more leak at the rubber nipple on the front breather bolt.

Well the experiment was worth the try in my opinion.

Also there is a pic below of the stock breather line configuration with the air filter removed. The nipple that hangs down in this pic goes through the back of the stock air filter int the throttle body. Pretty much the same way on all stock Harley intake air cleaner systems.

Ride Safe All,

Bill G

 

[DK Custom Products]

When you get the itch (if you get it) to stop having this stuff go into your combustion chambers....

making your pistons look like this...

Use some regular hose with a clamp or a zip tie on it. Then it will not leak.

Kevin

 

[geezerglide11441]

When you get the itch (if you get it) to stop having this stuff go into your combustion chambers....

making your pistons look like this...

Use some regular hose with a clamp or a zip tie on it. Then it will not leak.

Kevin

:Agree: 100% with Kevin's comment/suggestion!! I configured mine a little different and mounted a catch can on my left front downtube and it works awesome!! First photo on Kevin's response is the stuff that I retrieved from my catch can!!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but if it were me I would continue the efforts to install some sort of EBS system!!

Roger

 

[Trampas]

I'm sure with some thinking you will get it figured out, and maybe Kevin gave you the answer in his post

All for now Trampas

 

[Bill G]

When you get the itch (if you get it) to stop having this stuff go into your combustion chambers....

making your pistons look like this...

Use some regular hose with a clamp or a zip tie on it. Then it will not leak.

Kevin

Ok I get what your saying and could try that but still the question remains.

Why did the issue go away with the catch can removed? (was there a slight increased in flow restriction? maybe maybe not) The factory pop on nipples on the factory breathers rubber header that go over the breather bolts little ball tips as stated sealed right up on the front breather bolt that was weeping and not sealing. No issues now.

Also for me as stated before because of the EPA crap in California I will not be putting any AC mods like you advertise above. If I do the the air cleaner assembly or stage 1 will have a CARB approval sticker on them. That's just the way it is, nothing against what your selling.

Ride Safe,

Bill G

 

[geezerglide11441]

Ok I get what your saying and could try that but still the question remains.

Why did the issue go away with the catch can removed? (was there a slight increased in flow restriction? maybe maybe not) The factory pop on nipples on the factory breathers rubber header that go over the breather bolts little ball tips as stated sealed right up on the front breather bolt that was weeping and not sealing. No issues now.

Also for me as stated before because of the EPA crap in California I will not be putting any AC mods like you advertise above. If I do the the air cleaner assembly or stage 1 will have a CARB approval sticker on them. That's just the way it is, nothing against what your selling.

Ride Safe,

Bill G

Bill, did not realize you live in California which to my way of thinking that is your main problem

However, as I review your modified configuration and possibly see what may be your issue with the seeping/weeping stopping when you go back to your factory setup, you have the crankcase pressure pushing the blow by out the tubes and you have the other end in the TB which would be sucking (I could say at the head breathers you have a positive environment and at the other end in the TB you have a negative environment) which would aid it retrieving the blow by from the crankcase (I hope I am making my explanation clear!!), and with the modified EBS system you initiated, you only have the positive pressure from the crankcase trying to push the blow by bi-product (hot oily air) up and down to your catch can without any "sucking" going on.

I would think (sometimes I do that) that what Kevin recommended/advised with clamps or zip ties your modified system might work. It is apparent that the crankcase pressure is overwhelming your "slip-on" hose fittings and that is why you are getting the oily weeping.

You are on the right track, as when you seal the fittings up tight, the "hot oily vapor" will have no place to exit except the catch can!!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!! But I will say that your bike will run better and last longer if you vent the crankcase breather system to the atmosphere.

Roger

 

[Bill G]

Bill, did not realize you live in California which to my way of thinking that is your main problem

However, as I review your modified configuration and possibly see what may be your issue with the seeping/weeping stopping when you go back to your factory setup, you have the crankcase pressure pushing the blow by out the tubes and you have the other end in the TB which would be sucking (I could say at the head breathers you have a positive environment and at the other end in the TB you have a negative environment) which would aid it retrieving the blow by from the crankcase (I hope I am making my explanation clear!!), and with the modified EBS system you initiated, you only have the positive pressure from the crankcase trying to push the blow by bi-product (hot oily air) up and down to your catch can without any "sucking" going on.

I would think (sometimes I do that) that what Kevin recommended/advised with clamps or zip ties your modified system might work. It is apparent that the crankcase pressure is overwhelming your "slip-on" hose fittings and that is why you are getting the oily weeping.

You are on the right track, as when you seal the fittings up tight, the "hot oily vapor" will have no place to exit except the catch can!!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!! But I will say that your bike will run better and last longer if you vent the crankcase breather system to the atmosphere.

Roger

Thanks Roger,

I totally agree with the positive/negative pressure thing and the vapor going into or being sucked into the throttle body verses a more negative pressure going into the catch can set up. I thought about that after the posting of this thread on my way to work tonight and it makes total since. With all do respect to everyone I say this, Yes I tend to agree removing the vapor from the throttle body is a great idea for sure but may be for lack of a better word overstated as an absolute need to do or marketed that way. Harleys have run this way for years and years and many have 100,000 miles plus without this issue of vapor going back into the throttle body or air cleaner destroying the bike. Yes performance arguments could be made.

On the California note,

Yes California sucks and that's why I don't get carried away with every performance mod that comes along. I am pretty sure people in this state are going to start getting in trouble for most of these mods. Sadly that's the way it is and as I have said before its coming. I did not vote these idiots in charge other people did.

My 2017 Tri Glide runs well enough stock, very well for a 1250lb scoot. I do not really think it needs a grip of performance mods, yes arguments could be made. It is not really worth the risk, hassle or cost these days to mod it to much in the state of California. A lot of dealers now will not even take in on trade an extremely modded bike unless the mods are EPA legal. They want all the stock parts back so they can put them back on or you got to put them back on. I Just went through this with my Dyna and my Freewheeler trade in towards our 2017 Tri Glide and on my Fat Boy a few years back on trade in towards our 2015 Freewheeler. ( HD settlement with EPA has changed things big time). . Enough ranting about California and it's ridiculous laws there not going to change just going to get worse.

For me the important mods that I spend my money on are ones that work well like trike lift brackets, shocks, floor board ext and so on.

Thanks again Rodger for the information.

Ride Safe,

Bill G

 

[Bill G]

Bill, did not realize you live in California which to my way of thinking that is your main problem

However, as I review your modified configuration and possibly see what may be your issue with the seeping/weeping stopping when you go back to your factory setup, you have the crankcase pressure pushing the blow by out the tubes and you have the other end in the TB which would be sucking (I could say at the head breathers you have a positive environment and at the other end in the TB you have a negative environment) which would aid it retrieving the blow by from the crankcase (I hope I am making my explanation clear!!), and with the modified EBS system you initiated, you only have the positive pressure from the crankcase trying to push the blow by bi-product (hot oily air) up and down to your catch can without any "sucking" going on.

I would think (sometimes I do that) that what Kevin recommended/advised with clamps or zip ties your modified system might work. It is apparent that the crankcase pressure is overwhelming your "slip-on" hose fittings and that is why you are getting the oily weeping.

You are on the right track, as when you seal the fittings up tight, the "hot oily vapor" will have no place to exit except the catch can!!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!! But I will say that your bike will run better and last longer if you vent the crankcase breather system to the atmosphere.

Roger

Rodger,

As said above I agree with the idea of taking the oily vapor out of the throttle body into some type of a catch can system. Also have stated Harleys have run this way for years but that aside... I came up with another line idea or new rubber hose header set up in my head sitting here at work that will go from the breather plugs in the heads to the to the catch can(and should be tighter fitting) I am going to take another run at getting it right and sealed up tomorrow. If I get it right I will follow up with a few pic"s.

My key concern here as with the first attempt was keeping all this hidden behind the air cleaner cover inside the stock air box because of all the EPA crap discussed (out of sight no call to look any further no red flags) plus nothing has been modified that can not be changed back quickly.

Thanks again for your input on this,

Bill G

 

[Capt.Bob]

Rodger,

As said above I agree with the idea of taking the oily vapor out of the throttle body into some type of a catch can system. Also have stated Harleys have run this way for years but that aside... I came up with another line idea or new rubber hose header set up in my head sitting here at work that will go from the breather plugs in the heads to the to the catch can(and should be tighter fitting) I am going to take another run at getting it right and sealed up tomorrow. If I get it right I will follow up with a few pic"s.

My key concern here as with the first attempt was keeping all this hidden behind the air cleaner cover inside the stock air box because of all the EPA crap discussed (out of sight no call to look any further no red flags) plus nothing has been modified that can not be changed back quickly.

Thanks again for your input on this,

Bill G

Bill, It's funny but when I read your first thread, my thoughts were that this guy is whining which is definitely not the case. I don't think some folks think or care about certain locales where bikes are likely going to get flagged and warranties impacted. The frequency of these flagging events is unknown at this point and may remain essentially unknowable in the grand scheme. OTOH, your epiphany that mods like the catch can are able to be concealed and not attract attention is a good one and also may help to ameliorate fowled air from being directed back into the intakes of our valuable motors as Kevin pointed out.

I am like yourself that with the factory warranty and ESP, I am not willing to throw all caution to the wind in terms of maintaining the viability of my warranties and extended service plans but OTOH want to add mods that noticeably improve performance/comfort of my ride without unduly impacting the above-mentioned warranties. I don't have the inclination to invoke Magnuson Act defensive strategies by wandering too far off the intentions of the warranters in playing with my expensive equipment.

 

[Bill G]

Bill, It's funny but when I read your first thread, my thoughts were that this guy is whining which is definitely not the case. I don't think some folks think or care about certain locales where bikes are likely going to get flagged and warranties impacted. The frequency of these flagging events is unknown at this point and may remain essentially unknowable in the grand scheme. OTOH, your epiphany that mods like the catch can are able to be concealed and not attract attention is a good one and also may help to ameliorate fowled air from being directed back into the intakes of our valuable motors as Kevin pointed out.

I am like yourself that with the factory warranty and ESP, I am not willing to throw all caution to the wind in terms of maintaining the viability of my warranties and extended service plans but OTOH want to add mods that noticeably improve performance/comfort of my ride without unduly impacting the above-mentioned warranties. I don't have the inclination to invoke Magnuson Act defensive strategies by wandering too far off the intentions of the warranters in playing with my expensive equipment.

Bob,

You get it my friend, I don't think the catch can thing is going to void any warranties but I don't want to modify any of the stock parts for reasons stated. Again note on the 2017 models moving forward things have changed big time folks need to read the link below if you can stand the read, most folks have not. This affects more than just California folks that own 2017 and forward moving years of Harley Davidsons.

I mention California and the EPA and some could say whining a little. Things for 2017 owners changed after the EPA settlement with Harley. I don't think most have read or understand the settlement I really don't and I have read parts of it. The venders selling non EPA tuners or tuning, exhaust and air cleaner set ups can do so but the buyer better understand this settlement and what it means. Without going to deep as one can read the settlement for them selves. It looks like Harley is mandated by the EPA to log and record and turn in non EPA mapping or tuning to the ECM and they can tell I think even if the mapping has been changed back to stock, (I am not sure on this as I am not a tuner). Harley is mandated to void your drivetrain part of the warranty at this point as part of the EPA settlement. So tune your bike with non EPA mufflers tuning to the ECM and AC systems at your own risk. A ton of guys are saying the Magnuson Act defensive strategies will save them but will it. I am not a Lawyer so I guess time will tell as this EPA settlement with Harley unfolds in the future. I say this because guys out there are going to mod there bikes with non EPA stuff regardless.

I suggest folks read the EPA settlement and make up there own mind on how far they want to go on 2017 models and moving forward year models.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-08/documents/harleydavidson-cd.pdf

Ride Safe,

Bill G

 

[Capt.Bob]

EPA and the MOCO

Bill G., I am not a lawyer and did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night but the Consent Decree issued to Harley is pretty straight forward for us lay people. What is interesting in the read is a subparagraph where the MOCO is going to have to report each year to the EPA on the amount of warranties that were denied for tuners that modify the ECU's. I would suspect that Harley as a corporation is cuing up their dealers to find a certain level of non-compliance and denial of warranties to satisfy and keep the EPA off their backs? I really don't want to get into all of the political ramifications and/or opinions of why Harley was targeted because many of us old geezers are keenly aware of how individual freedoms post 9/11 have changed. It appears that the Consent Decree allowed Harley to get off lightly in terms of selling about 350,000 tuners since 2008 and only got fined $12 million without any admission of guilt.

I agree with you that year-model 2017 and going forward, MOCO bikes and tuner products are likely to be scrutinized at a different level than has ever happened before. How this is going to translate to the aftermarket product developers in terms of their viability for certain products remains to be seen. I am glad that I don't have financial interest in a dyno unit because I think these folks are going to be significantly impacted in the years to come in terms of how many folks want to hop up their rides.

 

[geezerglide11441]

Rodger,

As said above I agree with the idea of taking the oily vapor out of the throttle body into some type of a catch can system. Also have stated Harleys have run this way for years but that aside... I came up with another line idea or new rubber hose header set up in my head sitting here at work that will go from the breather plugs in the heads to the to the catch can(and should be tighter fitting) I am going to take another run at getting it right and sealed up tomorrow. If I get it right I will follow up with a few pic"s.

My key concern here as with the first attempt was keeping all this hidden behind the air cleaner cover inside the stock air box because of all the EPA crap discussed (out of sight no call to look any further no red flags) plus nothing has been modified that can not be changed back quickly.

Thanks again for your input on this,

Bill G

Morning Bill, one thing one should consider with the way I configured my system is the the EPA should not have any concern with my EBS system is that I am not venting my system to the atmosphere!! It goes from the crankcase venting system to a catch can that I empty periodically and it is NOT vented to the ground as I have seen others do and which I think the EPA would have issue with. By catching my debris (oily laden crankcase air) and dispersing it properly in the garbage, I am not violating the EPA laws. I only choose to catch my debris instead of sending back into the combustion chamber to be burned there. In this way, I do not believe I am in violation of the EPA Requirements and my engine is much happier with cooler air and less carbon in the combustion chamber.

In my way of thinking, if I catch the debris and not let it "hit the ground" in the atmosphere, I am not violating any law!!

I trust you will understand my philosophy.

Roger

 

[rhino 2]

Any moderation to an EPA certificated part no matter how benign is considered tampering and illegal!

 

[Bill G]

Bill G., I am not a lawyer and did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night but the Consent Decree issued to Harley is pretty straight forward for us lay people. What is interesting in the read is a subparagraph where the MOCO is going to have to report each year to the EPA on the amount of warranties that were denied for tuners that modify the ECU's. I would suspect that Harley as a corporation is cuing up their dealers to find a certain level of non-compliance and denial of warranties to satisfy and keep the EPA off their backs? I really don't want to get into all of the political ramifications and/or opinions of why Harley was targeted because many of us old geezers are keenly aware of how individual freedoms post 9/11 have changed. It appears that the Consent Decree allowed Harley to get off lightly in terms of selling about 350,000 tuners since 2008 and only got fined $12 million without any admission of guilt.

I agree with you that year-model 2017 and going forward, MOCO bikes and tuner products are likely to be scrutinized at a different level than has ever happened before. How this is going to translate to the aftermarket product developers in terms of their viability for certain products remains to be seen. I am glad that I don't have financial interest in a dyno unit because I think these folks are going to be significantly impacted in the years to come in terms of how many folks want to hop up their rides.

Bob,

I totaly agree with on this 100%. Time will tell the story my friend.

Ride Safe,

Bill G

 

[Bill G]

Morning Bill, one thing one should consider with the way I configured my system is the the EPA should not have any concern with my EBS system is that I am not venting my system to the atmosphere!! It goes from the crankcase venting system to a catch can that I empty periodically and it is NOT vented to the ground as I have seen others do and which I think the EPA would have issue with. By catching my debris (oily laden crankcase air) and dispersing it properly in the garbage, I am not violating the EPA laws. I only choose to catch my debris instead of sending back into the combustion chamber to be burned there. In this way, I do not believe I am in violation of the EPA Requirements and my engine is much happier with cooler air and less carbon in the combustion chamber.

In my way of thinking, if I catch the debris and not let it "hit the ground" in the atmosphere, I am not violating any law!!

I trust you will understand my philosophy.

Roger

Totaly agree. I just re did my hose system on my catch can mod with clamps and removed the factory rubber hose header. I am pretty sure I got it this time. I will post pic's of the re-do.

Again thanks Rodger,

Bill G

 

[Bill G]

I re-did the hose assembly to the breather bolts with clamps. It should work now.

I re-did the hose assembly to the breather bolts with clamps and did away with the factory hose set up. I put the rubber plug back in the back of the air filter and re-installed. I kept the catch can in the same place as before still hidden away in the stock airbox. I think I got it this time and there should be no weeps or leaks now. Everything should go to the catch can now. It's raining right now plus I have been up all night at work so I will test Ride later. I did run it in the garage for a bit and all looked good.

See Pic's

Ride Safe All,

Bill G

 

[Bill G]

Any moderation to an EPA certificated part no matter how benign is considered tampering and illegal!

Yes that's true and always has been the case but not really inforced to any degree. Things are changeing the EPA is holding Harley to the fire. Read the EPA settlement and fine that Harley just paid out. There is stiff legal language in the settlement concerning EPA emissions and what Harley will do. 2017 models and future years coming are being held to a totally diffrent standard. This is going to be a game changer for the industry. Time will tell how bad it will get. One thing is for sure it's not going to be the same as it was.

Ride Safe,

Bill G

 

[DK Custom Products]

Wow! There are a lot of different subjects in this thread that are sort of all mashed together, along with some conclusions that appear to be made from misinformation/misunderstanding.

To untangle it some:

.

1. Yes, Harleys will run and not break down anytime soon if they do NOT have an EBS.

They will not run as strong, they will not get as good MPG, they will run hotter, and they will wear out sooner...but nothing catastrophic will happen anytime soon if it is run without an EBS.

It is sort of like waxing or not waxing paint. Nothing catastrophic will happen if you don't wax your paint. But if you do, it will look better, and last longer than if you don't.

Harleys run better and last longer with an EBS.

.

2. Emissions Compliance- No state, including California, does any emissions compliance testing on motorcycles. If, at some point in the future a State starts doing emissions compliance on motorcycles, that will be a bridge to cross at the time, based on what kind of testing they do and don't do...IF they ever start doing it at all.

Regarding simple modifications, up to a Stage I, I fail to see the reasoning in not doing something that will make my bike better because of something that someone MIGHT do at some point in the future.

All Stage I stuff is easy to undo if at some point, someone, somewhere, decides to do something in the Future that Might impact the bike I have today.

.

3. The 2017 Harley-Davidson Warranty can be viewed in its entirety at this LINK.

The relevant excerpt from the 2017 HD Warrant is:

Other Limitations

Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail.



There is nothing in the Harley 2017 warranty that says if you install a part on your Harley that does not cause a Harley part to fail that there will be a denial of warranty. The reason for this is because to do so would be illegal by federal law.

There have been more than a few cases in recent years of automotive manufacturers that have tried to do this. They have LOST MILLIONS in damages when caught trying to deny warranty work because of aftermarket parts that did NOT cause any factory parts to fail.

To date Harley has steered clear of any wording in their warranty, and any actions with their Dealerships, that would get them in trouble with the law in regards to denying warranty work that should be done. ie. it seems apparent that they do not want to damage their reputation, nor lose millions in court (like some of the automotive companies have) that would make the paltry California settlement look like a slap on the hand.

.

4. The Consent Decree

A Consent Decree is an agreement/settlement that resolves a dispute between two parties without admission of liability. It is NOT law, nor can it invalidate/supersede existing law.

The 8-18-17 CD that Harley signed is with Harley Corporate. It specifically states that HD Dealerships are NOT parties to the Consent Decree.

For our purposes (as owners of HD motorcycles) it applies ONLY to information that HD has regarding a 2017 motorcycle that is tuned with a Tuner that is not covered by California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by the EPA.

IT DOES NOT APPLY to Any other modifications, such as an air cleaner, External Breather Systems, Oil Coolers, Oil Filter Relocation, etc.

Since it only applies to Tuners, and since the HD ECM is NOT capable of knowing if a Tuner has ever been used on it, the only way HD will know is if you tell the Dealership that you have used a Tuner on it.

The CD was a money grab by the government to get a penalty from HD right before the '17's were introduced. The penalty did not hurt HD more than a slap on the hand. It has been used by some Dealership parts departments to scare people into buying HD parts only...which, is to their benefit, even though it has zero basis in reality, as seen by the info above.

Bottom line on the Consent Decree, it does NOT invalidate the 2017 Warranty, it only applies to Tuners that they know about...so don't tell them.

.

btw- Interesting that this thread showed up when it did. A couple of days ago I started working on a mailing that is going out this weekend. One of the subjects in it is FAKE NEWS....addressing the subject of warranties.

It was spawned by a 2 wheeled Customer of ours that is a Lawyer. In one of his emails he wrote-

"Harley has made clear on the 2017's that you can't change anything without voiding the warranty."

Wow, even as a lawyer he was buying the Fake News line. He has since done his research and found out that it is untrue.

Kevin

 

[Trampas]

Looking good to me anyway, let us know how this system works since the last system didn't work as good as you had hoped it would. Understand your way of thinking of EPA and being in Calif and warranty, I'm still on the bubble on what I want to do.

All for now Trampas

 

[Bill G]

Wow! There are a lot of different subjects in this thread that are sort of all mashed together, along with some conclusions that appear to be made from misinformation/misunderstanding.

To untangle it some:

.

1. Yes, Harleys will run and not break down anytime soon if they do NOT have an EBS.

They will not run as strong, they will not get as good MPG, they will run hotter, and they will wear out sooner...but nothing catastrophic will happen anytime soon if it is run without an EBS.

It is sort of like waxing or not waxing paint. Nothing catastrophic will happen if you don't wax your paint. But if you do, it will look better, and last longer than if you don't.

Harleys run better and last longer with an EBS.

.

2. Emissions Compliance- No state, including California, does any emissions compliance testing on motorcycles. If, at some point in the future a State starts doing emissions compliance on motorcycles, that will be a bridge to cross at the time, based on what kind of testing they do and don't do...IF they ever start doing it at all.

Regarding simple modifications, up to a Stage I, I fail to see the reasoning in not doing something that will make my bike better because of something that someone MIGHT do at some point in the future.

All Stage I stuff is easy to undo if at some point, someone, somewhere, decides to do something in the Future that Might impact the bike I have today.

.

3. The 2017 Harley-Davidson Warranty can be viewed in its entirety at this LINK.

The relevant excerpt from the 2017 HD Warrant is:

Other Limitations

Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail.



There is nothing in the Harley 2017 warranty that says if you install a part on your Harley that does not cause a Harley part to fail that there will be a denial of warranty. The reason for this is because to do so would be illegal by federal law.

There have been more than a few cases in recent years of automotive manufacturers that have tried to do this. They have LOST MILLIONS in damages when caught trying to deny warranty work because of aftermarket parts that did NOT cause any factory parts to fail.

To date Harley has steered clear of any wording in their warranty, and any actions with their Dealerships, that would get them in trouble with the law in regards to denying warranty work that should be done. ie. it seems apparent that they do not want to damage their reputation, nor lose millions in court (like some of the automotive companies have) that would make the paltry California settlement look like a slap on the hand.

.

4. The Consent Decree

A Consent Decree is an agreement/settlement that resolves a dispute between two parties without admission of liability. It is NOT law, nor can it invalidate/supersede existing law.

The 8-18-17 CD that Harley signed is with Harley Corporate. It specifically states that HD Dealerships are NOT parties to the Consent Decree.

For our purposes (as owners of HD motorcycles) it applies ONLY to information that HD has regarding a 2017 motorcycle that is tuned with a Tuner that is not covered by California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by the EPA.

IT DOES NOT APPLY to Any other modifications, such as an air cleaner, External Breather Systems, Oil Coolers, Oil Filter Relocation, etc.

Since it only applies to Tuners, and since the HD ECM is NOT capable of knowing if a Tuner has ever been used on it, the only way HD will know is if you tell the Dealership that you have used a Tuner on it.

The CD was a money grab by the government to get a penalty from HD right before the '17's were introduced. The penalty did not hurt HD more than a slap on the hand. It has been used by some Dealership parts departments to scare people into buying HD parts only...which, is to their benefit, even though it has zero basis in reality, as seen by the info above.

Bottom line on the Consent Decree, it does NOT invalidate the 2017 Warranty, it only applies to Tuners that they know about...so don't tell them.

.

btw- Interesting that this thread showed up when it did. A couple of days ago I started working on a mailing that is going out this weekend. One of the subjects in it is FAKE NEWS....addressing the subject of warranties.

It was spawned by a 2 wheeled Customer of ours that is a Lawyer. In one of his emails he wrote-

"Harley has made clear on the 2017's that you can't change anything without voiding the warranty."

Wow, even as a lawyer he was buying the Fake News line. He has since done his research and found out that it is untrue.

Kevin

That's all good information Kevin.

For me my take on this and what I have said and think.

Agree with points 1,2 & 3 never said anything different. (Mentioned arguments could be made). Yes stated Harley's have ran this way for years and agree with the benefits of an EBS never said diffrent. I did say For me personally I would only do an EBS if I did not have to modify my stock parts and prefer it not be visible.

The decree or settlement is what it is folks can read it. It is going to change things moving forward. As stated time will tell......

2017 Harley models can get drive train warranty voided under specific situations as stated in decree.... Well of course we can all not tell them but here's a thought... What if you breakdown on a road trip with a non EPA tune? Well now that changes it up a little, could happen.

********* I think Capt Bob in his reply summed it up best over all looking forward concerning the decree.

No one said any states smog yet that I recall but there is talk of it all the time.... A dealer on the west coast I visit regularly here a few months back manager told me no more non EPA muffler or parts to be sold or installed or non EPA tunes. Then says inside rumor is smogs to start in a few years ( will California do this, hell I don't know but I don't want the headache) Is he speaking Fake News or stating what his dealer is doing...and or possible future outcomes.



No one on this thread yet said the MoCo could void your hole warranty or warranty if any after market parts were installed so no Fake News. That has been said on other forums and places.

Also mentioned I did not know if a tune could be traced on the ECM and stated I was not a tuner.

I did say that at least for me personally I want my parts EPA stamped or legal because of possible future issues in my state of California. Also stated I did not want to do any mods that could not be reversed easily.

Also stated my Dealer wants all your stock parts back if not EPA stamped installed parts. They put the parts back on for resale.(For example- I had a V&H 2 into 1 header on my Fat Boy that I traded. They removed it and put the stock system back on. Then sold the V&H header on e-bay). They no longer install non EPA mufflers or AC systems or do non EPA tunes. All this started with the EPA stuff so there are changes coming like said. Maybe just California but how far will this ripple go, as said time will tell. This is not Fake News but it is what my dealer is doing.

All The Best,

Bill G