Just another Oil Thread

[FuzzyWuzHe]

Not really.

Today was really bad windy here. So, I decided to run to HD and get supplies to do my bike service. Since the dealer did an oil change just before the purchase, I figured I'd go 1k then do all holes.

Talked to the service guy and he said y'all are right. Red Lind Primary and Red line tranny with sin 3 in the engine. I've always been a son 3 in all holes kind of guy.

Was going to do it today, but, wind really picked up and the temp dropped to around 40*. Supposed to be nice tomorrow, so I put it off.

So some questions:

1) Do you guys swap the tranny and primary red line at 5K? The service guy told me 10K or annually (every spring). I do about 6-10k a year depending on workload.

2) When you do this combination, should I do the syn3 in the engine at 2.5k? Service guys said 5k.

Any help will be appreciated, I'm on really new ground now. I kind of trust my service guy because he is into making drag bikes (always Harley's and he tunes with a pv). Not to mention, I believe Kevin uses Red Line too ... might be wrong on that, I am getting forgetful in my second youth.

 

[Jack Klarich]

The Tranny is spose to be good for 20k now ( with Formula +)

The Primary good for 10k ( with Formula +)

I dunno, I change them both each year or 10k for sure

I like Redline

I never used Syn3

I am using Quicksilver 20-50 engine oil and my M8 likes it

I change it @ 3k no matter what

When oil becomes 20 bucks a quart I may stretch it out a bit

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

I dunno, I change them both each year or 10k for sure

I like Redline

I never used Syn3

I am using Quicksilver 20-50 engine oil and my M8 likes it

I change it @ 3k no matter what

When oil becomes 20 bucks a quart I may stretch it out a bit

Yea, not sure I can ever let anything go on a bike for 20k, Thinking I'll do the primary and tranny at 10k or every spring whichever comes first.

My service guy said I will definitely notice the change in shifting with the red line. I think I might miss the "Harley Clunk" ... he said it will be gone or significantly less.

 

[TonkaDriver]

O-rings

While we are on the subject of 3 hole changes, I just ordered supplies for the 10,000 mile 3 hole change. I ordered the V-Twin kit from Amsoil as well as their primary oil and 75-140 severe gear for the transmission. What size O-Ring do I need for the transmission drain plug and what thread sealant would be recommended for

the drain plugs?

Title should read O-rings, guess I got a case of fat fingers again.

 

[DK Custom Products]

You're just trying to stir things up with "another oil thread". :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I use Syn3 in the primary. Found out quite by accident that it makes for smoother clutch engagement than the Formula Plus. I have been quite hesitant to try a full synthetic in the primary...don't want the clutch slipping. That said, I've read of lots of guys being happy using the Redline primary fluid in the primary....I just haven't brought myself to do it.

btw, I also read of lots of guys happy using ATF in their primary. I tried it, did not like it.

In the trans I use the Redline Shockproof. It makes a difference I can feel. Also, over 10 years ago I had my clutch cable replaced under warranty. Dealership drained the Redline shockproof out of the trans. Then they forgot to put any fluid back in the trans.

I rode home (about 50 miles) and did not notice anything awry until almost home....seemed to not shift quite as smooth. I thought they had put some regular 20-50 oil in there instead of the Redline Shockproof I had left with them for the trans.

I was really surprised when I checked and saw they had not put anything in. The Redline that had been in there was so good, the coating that had stuck to the gears (and not drained out) had kept it well lubricated.

I put another 50K plus on that bike and never had a single problem out of the transmission. That experience just reinforced how much I like the Redline Shockproof.

I change the fluid in the transmission every 16K-20K miles, and it is generally still looking the same as when I put it in. (Service manual calls for changing it every 20K miles)

In the engine, during cool months I run the Redline 20-50...hotter months I run Royal Purple straight 50 weight. ( wish Redline made a straight 50 or 60 weight)

The only time I would change a full synthetic (and I'm pretty sure Syn3 is still only a partial synthetic) more frequently than 4-5k miles, is if it had been subjected to temps in excess of 270*.

For the really curious, Blackstone Labs will analyze your oil and let you know how well it is holding up, you will also get some insights into engine wear. I send in oil in to them every now and then, just to satisfy my curiosity, and as a bit of a check up on internal engine health.

You can see a sample report at this LINK.

Kevin

 

[Jack Klarich]

O-Rings

While we are on the subject of 3 hole changes, I just ordered supplies for the 10,000 mile 3 hole change. I ordered the V-Twin kit from Amsoil as well as their primary oil and 75-140 severe gear for the transmission. What size O-Ring do I need for the transmission drain plug and what thread sealant would be recommended for

the drain plugs?

Title should read O-rings, guess I got a case of fat fingers again.

Here you go

 

[Jack Klarich]

Redline bonds to the gears and bearings on a molecular level

Read here and see the pictures

https://www.redlineoil.com/v-twin-t...dea-than-using-motor-oil-in-your-transmission

 

[prariepilot]

Red Line

Redline bonds to the gears and bearings on a molecular level

Read here and see the pictures

https://www.redlineoil.com/v-twin-t...dea-than-using-motor-oil-in-your-transmission

Red Line in all three holes: 20-50 Motor Oil; Shockproof Transmission and Red Line V-Twin Primary oil. Change it every spring after about 8-10K miles. Slightly more expensive than Syn3, but worth it.

 

[Zammy]

I run Redline products in all 3 holes Fuzzy, the Shockproof one in the tranny. I also change out all 3 at 5000 mile intervals no matter what, just my way of doing it.

 

[ultrafxr]

Kevin regarding Syn 3 Harley says it is full synthetic. I used it in all three holes when it first came out on my '99 Ultra and never had any problem. Then with my '07 CVO Ultra I switched to Redline in the tranny and primary and Mobil 1 in the motor.

Just recently switched to the Quicksilver 20W-50 V-Twin motor oil and like it fine. For several years I've just stuck to the Harley Formula + in the tranny and primary. My '17 Limited and now my '18 TG shift just fine - no clunking and easy to find neutral. Think I'll just stick with the Formula + for those two holes.

 

[Capt.Bob]

Kevin regarding Syn 3 Harley says it is full synthetic. I used it in all three holes when it first came out on my '99 Ultra and never had any problem. Then with my '07 CVO Ultra I switched to Redline in the tranny and primary and Mobil 1 in the motor.

Just recently switched to the Quicksilver 20W-50 V-Twin motor oil and like it fine. For several years I've just stuck to the Harley Formula + in the tranny and primary. My '17 Limited and now my '18 TG shift just fine - no clunking and easy to find neutral. Think I'll just stick with the Formula + for those two holes.

+1 on the Formula +. No shifting problems or difficulties finding Neutral on my 2017 TGU. BTW, the Syn 3 is not fully synthetic despite Harley's advertising claims. It is probably a good thing that it is not so that it can successfully be used in all three holes. As Kevin was pointing out, it is likely that true synthetic would probably not be great for clutch engagement.

 

[MDO]

+1 on the Formula +. No shifting problems or difficulties finding Neutral on my 2017 TGU. BTW, the Syn 3 is not fully synthetic despite Harley's advertising claims. It is probably a good thing that it is not so that it can successfully be used in all three holes. As Kevin was pointing out, it is likely that true synthetic would probably not be great for clutch engagement.

I have to disagree with you Capt.Bob. I currently use Lucas High Performance full synthetic 20W50 oil in all 3 holes and it was a big improvement over the Syn3 the dealer installed at the 1,000 mile service.

The biggest improvement was in shifting, both up and down & finding nuetral. Smooth as silk.

I changed to Lucas at around 3,250 miles and am at a little over 5,000. Clutch operation is also excellent.

The internet is all over the place on whether HDSyn 3 is a full synthetic or a blend.

You would think someone would have done a definitive test.

 

[Capt.Bob]

I have to disagree with you Capt.Bob. I currently use Lucas High Performance full synthetic 20W50 oil in all 3 holes and it was a big improvement over the Syn3 the dealer installed at the 1,000 mile service.

The biggest improvement was in shifting, both up and down & finding nuetral. Smooth as silk.

I changed to Lucas at around 3,250 miles and am at a little over 5,000. Clutch operation is also excellent.

I also don't believe that HD would state Syn3 is full synthetic if it wasn't, due to the fact that someone always checks to keep you honest

MDO, Glad your oil is working out for you. I suspect that the link provided below will give you some pause and have you considering some aspects of lubrication that us non-engineering types are generally unaware of.

In terms of Syn 3 being fully synthetic, the MSDS cannot be lied about to the Feds and apparently can meet the definition for synthetic but in fact is not fully synthetic. Here is a link to information about the MSDS which apparently shows that Syn3 is about 60% synthetic and 40% non-synthetic http://easyrider.easyrider.com/syn3.htm found at Easy Rider LAN Pro. This is the reason that Kevin mentioned he is less concerned about using Syn 3 because he is aware that it is not a pure synthetic. Of course, his concerns about pure synthetic use for the clutch begs the question if your use of purely synthetic oil in that hole might lead to some subsequent clutch slippage difficulties? I am not a petroleum engineer or even a professional mechanic so cannot address the issue with any authority. However, if you read the chart contained in the link, you will find that Harley specifically warns about roller bearing "skid or skate" as a result of using pure synthetic formulations.

 

[MDO]

MDO, Glad your oil is working out for you. In terms of Syn 3 being fully synthetic, the MSDS cannot be lied about to the Feds. Here is a link to the MDS which apparently shows that Syn3 is 60% synthetic and 40% non-synthetic http://easyrider.easyrider.com/syn3.htm

I had just changed my post. It is hard to tell who is telling the truth. I changed it after reading the Easy Rider post, but could not tell how old it was.

You have to keep 1 thing in mind, the Amsoil papers are written by them to sell their oil.

I am trying to find an independent research paper on the HD oil, just to get the facts, but I'm still never using it as I feel there are too many better options.

I did find 1 interesting fact. An oil can have 1% synthetic oil & be labeled a semi-synthetic or synthetic blend.

 

[Capt.Bob]

I had just changed my post. It is hard to tell who is telling the truth. I changed it after reading the Easy Rider post, but could not tell how old it was.

You have to keep 1 thing in mind, the Amsoil papers are written by them to sell their oil.

I am trying to find an independent research paper on the HD oil, just to get the facts, but I'm still never using it as I feel there are too many better options.

I did find 1 interesting fact. An oil can have 1% synthetic oil & be labeled a semi-synthetic or synthetic blend.

MDO, Knowledge is power! Here is a link from a machine maintenance group dealing with lubrication that articulates some of the issues related to bearing skidding https://www.lubrication.com.au/case-study/bearing-skidding/

On a more pragmatic plane, the Motor Company is experiencing financial distress due to lower sales and stock prices and has also implemented fairly draconian compliance standards with the EPA giving them "license" to dictate that basically only "Harley Approved" add-on parts in 2017 and up in HD motors keeps the warranties intact citing EPA compliance. With all of the early difficulties with M8 engines (mine included which self-destructed with 15 miles on the clock and was replaced with a new factory engine) that alone suggests to me that I follow HD's recommendations to the letter so that if I have any subsequent engine/drivetrain problems that I will not have to fight HD for warranty or factory-sanctioned ESP coverage. The fact that HD has printed material articulating concerns about the use of pure synthetics suggests that they could be total butt-holes and deny warranty claims if their prescribed lubrication strategies are not adhered to. I do my own services and carefully document the materials and procedures used to comply with warranty protection.

As in all oil threads, it brings out a plethora of opinions about the efficacies of various brands of lubricants but the ONLY opinion that counts at warranty time (at least as I read the "tea leaves" as a non-attorney) in 2017 and newer bikes, is HD's <grimace>.

 

[Jack Klarich]

[ The fact that HD has printed material concerning the use of pure synthetics suggests that they could be total butt holes and deny warranty claims if their prescribed lubrication strategies are not adhered to.

/QUOTE]

I dunno about this statement

AS long as the fluids you use meet the specifications of or equal to HD there is NOTHING they can do as far as not warrantying a problem IMO Seems to me the Magnuson Moss act may give a legal ground on this

Keeping good records and receipts will be important on our part

Mobil 1 and others have gone out on a limb with their marketing of products as well as Amzoil and Belray

These products have been used by consumers for years with no warranty issues I am aware of

In fact some dealers carry these oil including Redline and offer that on services now JMO

 

[Capt.Bob]

Jack,

I am totally with you on the "equal to" clause. However, products that are truly 100% synthetics are not equal to Harley's 60/40 blend and so I suspect really do not meet the Magnusson Moss definitions? I know that I am sounding like a worry wart and being overly picky but most of us do not have deep enough pockets to fight the fight if we were denied a $7-10k warranty claim on an engine that self-destructed and Harley was claiming that the use of non-equivalent oils were the genesis of the problem. This may be a more hypothetical than real problem but I for one do not want to be that test case. Just easier to go with the flow (pun intended) on some things than risk having to fight with folks that don't always have my back from past anecdotal reports. I must however, congratulate the Motor Company on their regional tech rep immediately ordering a factory replacement engine after a partial dealer teardown of the 15 mile garbaged M8 engine back in late 2017. The trike has 5700 miles on it now and is running beautifully!

 

[Ed H]

The Tranny is spose to be good for 20k now ( with Formula +)

The Primary good for 10k ( with Formula +)

I dunno, I change them both each year or 10k for sure

I like Redline

I never used Syn3

I am using Quicksilver 20-50 engine oil and my M8 likes it

I change it @ 3k no matter what

When oil becomes 20 bucks a quart I may stretch it out a bit

What he said.

 

[Jack Klarich]

Jack,

I am totally with you on the "equal to" clause. However, products that are truly 100% synthetics are not equal to Harley's 60/40 blend and so I suspect really do not meet the Magnusson Moss definitions? I know that I am sounding like a worry wart and being overly picky but most of us do not have deep enough pockets to fight the fight if we were denied a $7-8k warranty claim on an engine that self-destructed and Harley was claiming that the use of non-equivalent oils were the genesis of the problem. This may be a more hypothetical than real problem but I for one do not want to be that test case. Just easier to go with the flow (pun intended) on some things than risk having to fight with folks that don't always have my back from past anecdotal reports.

I here you

I am in the same corner you are here

Waiting for the other shoe o drop

 

[FuzzyWuzHe]

Okay, so today I did the service. Spent about 4 hours, an hour changing out al three holes, and 3 hours torquing and adjusting.

The only issues I saw was the primary fluid was a tad cloudy and maybe milky. I'm guessing condensation. I had almost a quart of Syn3 (left overs from previous oil swaps), so I put the plug back in the primary, Took the darby cover off and dumped the new syn3 in the primary and let it set while I did other things. After awhile, I pulled the plug, drained it and got pretty clean syn3 out. Cleaned the plug, new o-ring and filled with the red line primary stuff.

The other issue was some one used teflon tape on all three plugs. The primary had a "strings" of it hanging out after the fluid drained.



You can see the "strings" on the corner of the box (maybe that's what made it look milky?) Anyway, after the "flush", no more "strings".

So after all the work and cleanup, I took the bike for a test ride.

The bike ran really smooth. The Harley clunk is still there, but, milder. The clutch felt way smoother. All in all, I think I like the red line stuff.



Time will tell how well I end up liking it.