Dyno a Trike

[Mr.Wizard]

There aren't very many indy's or stealerships that can dyno a trike.

How did you get yours done?

This should be an interesting thread. Anyone think they need a dyno map?

 

[saybel]

Mine is an 07 Ultra, never been dyno'd. Don't plan on it. Only changes are air filter and the pipes. Runs great!

 

[ultraboy]

I've installed literally hundreds of aftermarket FI controllers, and while a Dyno is the 'proper' way to dial in a motor combo, there are very few M/C dyno operators who actually know what they are doing. With a power commander, or fuel pak, or what have you, there are always maps that are pretty close to your motor combo. After loading up the appropriate map, the old skool, tried and true plug chop, pipe color, decel popping, what have you, will tell you what you need to know to dial in the controller.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

OK but AFR's and VE tables for a SERT or PC III for a trike shouldn't be that difficult to set and the old school way could cost you a cylinder wash or melted components while watching for your blue pipes to get bluer or your plugs to wash out.

I hear this a lot..... "my dyno guy was great".... just to be put on another dyno and find his 02 sensors were off by .5 to 3.5 and so is your map. So now your crank bearings are scored because the dyno guy never calibrates his sniffer. (sounds funny doesn't it)

My thoughts are based on how others are doing trikes. Bikes are easy but trikes bring special challenges.

If your map was correct before your conversion will it be after? Does the extra weight cause your cruising TP to change thus placing you in a richer or leaner table?

 

[ultraboy]

Reksul, I'l agree that trike dyno's are scarce, (alomst as scarce as good operators) but I'll stand by what I said earlier. With a "close" PC or SERT map, unless you have no idea what you're doing, you'll be close enough to fine tune the map without wash-out or running too lean. As far as your comments on trike tuning, especially cruise TP, I can imagine it will be different, but I really don't know. I did my own trike install on my '07 FLHX this winter, and with snow butt-hole deep to a 9 foot indian, I have not been able to get out on the road. We all know that these things run too lean anyway, and for 99% of the folks out there, all that's gonna be done is the typical "Harley-Tax" items, namely pipes and air cleaner. Several easy ways to take care of that tho.
I'll tell you what I can do tho... I'm constantly changing cams, pipes, heads, etc. and toward that end have a Daytona Sensors DFI-3, with wide band sensors and auto tune. After being satisfied with my latest map, I left it alone for most of last summer, seeing very little auto tune changes. Once the weather breaks up here, we'll see just where the tables go.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I really like the DFI-3. I liked the TMax w/ auto as well until I tried it on a 96" smog motor. What's the name of the character with a set of six guns and a long red mustache and beard.. Yosemite Sam? Pop.. pow.. bang.

I'm a tinkerer and tweaker.. you know what that means.. "trouble"

I think you will agree with me here that the 96" tour bikes with the crossover tube is the most difficult to tune without decel pop/exhaust reversion when you change to a free breather or baffles over 1.75. 2.0 and up get a little touchy to tune unless you have true duals and slam in something like a set of Andrews 26H cams with some adjustable rods then you'll get back some of the bottom end torque. Right?

There is a way to tune a Harley Delphi trike then take it all off when you're done. I, like you, have spent countless hours tweaking maps. Dayton also makes a Twin Scan II w/ WEGO. (won't explain it because you already know what it is) This is what I have been using since they came out. I was wondering if anyone else would say they have tried it.

I guess we could sit back and chat about this for weeks and compare notes. Maybe we will get a chance to one day next to a camp fire and cold drink.


Oh yeah.. if you use an infrared temperature gun on the pipes and heads after each run it will help you tremendously.

Cheers

 

[Gorilla]

Hi guys, I just thought I would throw my 2 cents worth about TMAX w/auto learn wide band O2 sensors. I installed it on my HD 103 with true dual Rineharts/ K&N air filter, S&S 510G cams. When I first installed the TMAX with the base map for my setup it worked fine. I even took it out to Sturgis, Yellowstone, and Bear-Tooth Pass, after about 2 months it started acting up. Lost the full throttle setting. Anything above 3/4 throttle it would fall on it's face. Low end torque went down and it bucked when cool. Reprogramed the base and it worked fine for a couple of weeks then it started to learn the same issues. I put a Power Commander on (I've used several of these in the past) and installed the eliminators and a correct Map and all is great. Sold the TMAX. My first and only experience with the TMAX. Ted

 

[ultraboy]

Reksul, Yup, I've been around FI for a while. Wrote a couple nice FI articles for John Parham for the J&P website, and a couple for Iron Horse mag. I was a beta tester for the T-max, and didn't like the software (at that time) it was kinda DOS-like, clunky, if ya know what I mean. All of the Daytona sensors stuff is quality and more SERT-like in the software end, which I like. I still like Power Commanders, and was a beta tester for the "Rev-extend" and "start fuel" Kind of gotten away from them for a while, and really know nothing about their new PC-5 for the throttle by wire bikes. For several years I did all the FI dyno tunes at Drew's Motorcycle Service in Chesterton on Saturdays, etc. but Ol Drew retired and closed his shop after 25 years. The dyno is now in a barn, and may never be set up again.
Twinkie cams... well, I'll tell ya I don't care much for the TW-26 for baggers, or anybody else for that matter. I do like the TW-37 or TW-31, which is basically a TW-37 advanced 2 degrees. I like the S&S 510's too. Right now, I'm running Andrews TW 54's on my 103, and (when it was a two-wheeler) I was quite pleased. Now it's 3-wheels, I'll have to see what's up. True duals, yup, a must for baggers. And yes, I'll agree that we could prolly kill a night or two B.S.'ing on the ins and outs of tuning FI, no doubt.
Yup, still got the Twin-Scan/WEGO. I did write an article on the original Twin Scan, kind of comical really, but a great tool. What I find more often than not, is that most folks just don't care about getting into it, they just want the bike to run right, and not void their warrantee, which is something I never cared about. All my bikes were at the dealer once, and that was the day I rode away. The way things are now, I wouldn't let one of these new 'techs' put air in my tires, LOL. Tinkerer? yup, trouble, not really, just money.

Hope to catch up with you guys and share some asphalt one of these days...

 

[Nana]

Reksul, Yup, I've been around FI for a while. Wrote a couple nice FI articles for John Parham for the J&P website, and a couple for Iron Horse mag. I was a beta tester for the T-max, and didn't like the software (at that time) it was kinda DOS-like, clunky, if ya know what I mean. All of the Daytona sensors stuff is quality and more SERT-like in the software end, which I like. I still like Power Commanders, and was a beta tester for the "Rev-extend" and "start fuel" Kind of gotten away from them for a while, and really know nothing about their new PC-5 for the throttle by wire bikes. For several years I did all the FI dyno tunes at Drew's Motorcycle Service in Chesterton on Saturdays, etc. but Ol Drew retired and closed his shop after 25 years. The dyno is now in a barn, and may never be set up again.
Twinkie cams... well, I'll tell ya I don't care much for the TW-26 for baggers, or anybody else for that matter. I do like the TW-37 or TW-31, which is basically a TW-37 advanced 2 degrees. I like the S&S 510's too. Right now, I'm running Andrews TW 54's on my 103, and (when it was a two-wheeler) I was quite pleased. Now it's 3-wheels, I'll have to see what's up. True duals, yup, a must for baggers. And yes, I'll agree that we could prolly kill a night or two B.S.'ing on the ins and outs of tuning FI, no doubt.
Yup, still got the Twin-Scan/WEGO. I did write an article on the original Twin Scan, kind of comical really, but a great tool. What I find more often than not, is that most folks just don't care about getting into it, they just want the bike to run right, and not void their warrantee, which is something I never cared about. All my bikes were at the dealer once, and that was the day I rode away. The way things are now, I wouldn't let one of these new 'techs' put air in my tires, LOL. Tinkerer? yup, trouble, not really, just money.

OK Ultraboy and Reksul --- this is encrypted just to keep Nana in the dark, right? Nice goin! You've slowed me down (being a nurse and not an electrical enginner, and all) but you haven't stopped me. I'm getting out my english/dyno-speak dictionary and I'm gonna know what you are talking about before I'm done!!!!

 

[Mr.Wizard]

No worries Nana..

I think UB and I are about done speaking carbon monoxide for a while.. that is until someone hands me a beer. (Hand me three and I can't walk or type)

Oh, except for one thing... "twinkie cams" LOL I like that one. The Andrews are OK for me.. they give me decent pulling torque to mid range over the stock cams and that's where I ride. Rarely do I ever get over 4 grand.

 

[ultraboy]

OK Nana, I respect that you need to do some reserach. I was going to tell you that an Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator that is constantly making a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust system and air outside the engine. A Zirconium stabilized yttrium oxide ceramic shell is coated with a layer of platinum. When the nose is heated the platinum will begin to react with the exhaust gasses and a voltage potential will form between the inner and outer layers. The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is not conductive. The O2 sensors used in Harley’s are two-wire narrow band sensors, which have a voltage output usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. A rich mixture will leave very little free oxygen and the reaction will send out a voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean, all fuel is burned, and the extra oxygen leaves the cylinder and flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen is 0.2 to 0.7 volts. The mid point is about 0.45 volts, which is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor will not spend any time at 0.45 volts. The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high and low voltage. Manufacturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark ‘O2 cross counts.’ The higher the number of O2 cross counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer control system are working. It is important to remember that the O2 sensor is comparing the amount of oxygen inside and outside the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked, or coated with oil, this comparison is not possible. Also if the exhaust side of the sensor has been contaminated by using leaded fuels or gasket sealers, which are not specifically identified as being approved for use with oxygen sensors, the sensor can be permanently damaged.
Like I said, I was going to tell you that, but I shouldn't, so just ignore the above. If the above sounds familiar to anyone, it's a excerpt from an article I wrote in 2005 for J&P. John Parham put a copywrite on it, but he paid for it, so sue me.

 

[Nana]

You guys crack me up. Don't worry, you are outside of my area of expertise, but with the right dictionary/resource book, I have the brain power to catch on......eventually! I do know enough to know you need to be laughed at, even at this level of comprehension

 

[Mr.Wizard]

UB.. I've read that before.. so, you're the guy!

Nana.. not to worry... Harley didn't use the o2 sensors until the 07 bikes unless you want to count the 06 Dyna. They all run in closed loop now with the o2 sensors in the cruising ranges unless you tell it not to while using a SERT to remap. If you get our of your cruising ranges the ECM will put it in open loop.

UB.. the way I look at it there will be lots of bikes running around with bad sensors very soon as the mileage rolls on. At least it doesn't take much to diagnose a bad one nor do they cost that much to replace. Now if we can get the dyno guys to fresh air calibrate before a dyno run.. that would be a great start.

Yeah.. I can see it will take more than one cold one to have a conversation with you. Hope that happens one day.


Well.. back from the Cardiologist.. said I have four more years left before my energizer bunny retires. Heck.. saddle up! !

 

[Gorilla]

Ultraboy and reksul. Thanks for the in depth explaination. I knew the concept but not the details. Also UB thanks for the info that supports my real time bad experience with the TMAX and my good experiences with S&S 510G's and Power Commander.

 

[ultraboy]

tmigala & reksul,
Well, the above was not a real in-depth explination, but rather a start, and a bit of anecdotal information. I have taken everything I have ever written and learned about fuel injection, some of which goes back to the early '60's when I ran Enderle sewer pipe mechanical injection on a '55 Chevy Gas car, and put it together in a book. It was looked at by Motorbooks, but I need to do one heck of a lot of editing to pass muster for them to publish. Right now, I just don't have the time to sort out the dis-jointed hodge-podge of information that it is. To make matters worse, I sold the copywrite on several parts of it to J&P, AIM, and Iron Works, so I'm not sure how to handle that. Also, as I said earlier, both of our manufacturing companies are still at or near capacity, which takes most of my time.
One more word about Dyno testing... What does all this mean to the majority of FI bike owners? Not too much, as it's only anecdotal information, good for a bench racing discussion maybe. Each individual and his bike will require that person to give the dyno operator as much detailed information on the bike, it's known problems, what has been done before, how often he changes oil, checks plugs, and maybe most importantly, what is his/her riding style, and just what is trying to be accomplished by putting the bike on the dyno. His/her expectations, more or less. That's what you have to learn. Personally, I won't run a bike unless I can talk in person to the rider, and not just 5 minutes either. As far as the dreaded intake leak and the like, no bike is ever started without all the basics checked and verified. Oil condition and level, plugs, tires, chain/belt, tire pressure, compression check, intake tract, including air cleaner condition and seal, pipes, gaskets, observed leaks, coil/ignition, battery, wiring, does it have an oil cooler, and anything else I can see. All of this is written up, signed by owner and operator before ever putting the bike up on the stand. Anything less, and you are on your own, purely at the whim of the operator. Oh, and I'd free-air calibrate the Bosch sensors every day, sometime twice if the temp/humidity/density altitude changed.
For those who want max power, and all else out the window, we'll map to a different standard, richening up enough in the upper RPM ranges to allow maximum spark advance, by providing enough fuel to try to keep the heads cool enough to avoid detonation. While we can do anything we want, it is purely illegal on an "emmissions controlled motor vehicle"
Now that I don't have the pretty much unlimited dyno time I used to have, I'm content to tune with a laptop and the WEGO twin-scan, on the majority of pre O2 sensor bikes.
I guess the bottom line on all this rambling is that every one and every bike is different. There is no "one size fits all." Or, the old adage, "speed costs money, how fast ya wanna go"

OK, there's my .02 for the day, I'll get to work now...

 

[Mr.Wizard]

UB.. 10-4 on that. Well said...


Just to reverify my stance on the TMax. Just as I've seen with the Power Commander, there are bad TMax units that went out from the factory . Not all of them are junk. Not saying that at all. Both PC and TMax have very satisfied users out there.

With any product that is available on the market you are going to find one that has issues or just doesn't respond to your needs. Goes double for those who are not sure how to set them without doing the homework involved to match the map to their preferences as UB stated above.

Just because a unit comes with "auto-tune" function doesn't mean to bolt it up and forget about it. Some knowledge of mapping and computers is still required. Finding a qualified and competent tester is as, if not more, important than the EFI device you purchase. A good scenario would be to obtain both.