VTX 1800 - take front caliper off rear brake circuit? Rear Brake job. Quickstop shoes

[Volkemon]

Maybe... I think its a Ford 7 1/2 rear, and according to http://www.mustangii.org/decoder/axle/ They didnt appear in that car. :Shrug:

 

[CrystalPistol]

They used the 9" brakes in a wide variety of applications & with different rear ends.

Went to the old shop and got some spoons and my AMMCO 'SAFE-SET' drum and shoe caliper. Sets them a little closer to done, less reaching with the spoon.View attachment 80341

Seen them but don't have one, would look good hanging on a wall in the Smithsonian.

I just mess with the adjuster until the drum just slides on, then just a few clicks works.

So, in summation... De-linking is NOT for me. No advantage, and maybe even a disadvantage to do so

I agree 100%.

I do try to always stay in the habit of going for both Ft. & Rr. and then modulating my application pressure as now I'm thinking, not reacting.

I have a book in my collection that is titled "EVERYMAN'S GUIDE TO MOTOR EFFICIENCY re: Simplified Short-Cuts To Maximum Mileage At Minimum Cost" (H.W. Slauson M.E. and Howard Greene) , describes spark plugs, their job, etc … mentions some high end cars use platinum in the plug tips for long life. In another chapter it details leather faced clutches and then elsewhere, explains how to adjust engine bearings. Fascinating. Book was published in 1922.

You know what, I don't even know why I mentioned that.

Take Care all ….

 

[Volkemon]

I do try to always stay in the habit of going for both Ft. & Rr. and then modulating my application pressure as now I'm thinking, not reacting.

I have a book in my collection that is titled "EVERYMAN'S GUIDE TO MOTOR EFFICIENCY re: Simplified Short-Cuts To Maximum Mileage At Minimum Cost" (H.W. Slauson M.E. and Howard Greene) , describes spark plugs, their job, etc … mentions some high end cars use platinum in the plug tips for long life. In another chapter it details leather faced clutches and then elsewhere, explains how to adjust engine bearings. Fascinating. Book was published in 1922.

I enjoy those reads sometimes. Re-pouring new babbitt while engine is in place.... using thin strips of leather between rod and crank to get you home first... to me it gives us an idea of just how refined things are now. Clearances so tight a heavier viscosity oil WONT FIT in the gap. :xzqxz: Sure, we all say 'Sure was easier to fix in the old days' but also marvel that a fullsize pickup can now deliver hundreds of horsepower and 25mpg...

Respect yesterday, dream of tomorrow, live for today.

With the brakes, using the pedal as my 'first response' seems to work, then having the front ready soon after for the final grip. Found a grassy spot for better testing, and indeed the front will lock up with the rear ON GRASSY SURFACES. But on pavement, I could consistently lock both rears and not see/feel any front lockup. When adding the front near this limit, there was a noticeable but not big difference. At that point, ANYTHING is welcome at the limits, right? But I am actively working on making my right leg be the emergency response. Just gotta keep the 'old dog' habits buried.

After getting over 'clicking helmets' the first time, Mrs V is EXTREMELY happy about the new braking. I did warn her, but it was such a radical increase she wasnt ready. :clapping:

Not in a HUGE hurry to put on the quickstop shoes on when they get here, may incorporate it into the next time I have to work in there.

 

[CrystalPistol]

Respect yesterday, dream of tomorrow, live for today.

Yes sir,always.

The Z474R are known as the 'quickstop' line, the PAB 474R as 'thermo quiet'. I want quick stops, and will HOPEFULLY never need the thermal range of the PAB's.

I've wondered how well the "Quickstop" ones work. I'm not sure what's on our trike other than they are Ford 9" drum brakes on a 6.75" ring gear Ford rear (from like a 1980 Pinto or similar, shortened, etc). Not sure what shoes are on it, they are still what ever Lehman shipped, they are bonded and look great wear wise (likely have 50-60,xxx or more miles on them, odo shows 92,xxx last I recall, but it wasn't always a trike, just since '98). Lehman book listed WCs as Duralast #33825 @ 3/4" diameter, but mine measured @ 7/8" diameter so I went with some 7/8" replacements (Wagner WCA79985) as I was happy with the "action" ... & they have worked well so far. If I keep my hand off of the front brake I can get the rears to lock (if desired) on pavement.

Studs look long enough? When we bought it, it still had Lehman supplied Dunlop Qualifier GT 245/60R15 tires on the ASA 15x7 wheels and the tires were about gone in the center tread area so I replaced them with narrower lighter 215/70R15 size tires, they were easier fitting under fenders when trike is jacked and axle drops as those 245/60s were a PITA to wiggle out from under the fender. Then to get the tire back out near the fender opening (just for looks), I added some 5/8" thick aluminum wheel spacers and longer Morosso (good steel) 1/2" wheel studs, and now the rear tires are again … a PITA to wiggle out from under the fender, but I have a method to my madness :laugh: and I can still get my pinky in between to wipe/clean the tire sidewall.

 

[Volkemon]

Thats a purdy setup. 4 lug! And you said 6.75 axle, and mine I believe to be a 7.5 . Still learning the differences, and what is common in 'the family' of rearends.

On mine it looks as if there are 2 wheel patterns on the axle, I never tried to measure the other circle to see what it is.

Funny you should talk about tires... been searching out threads on rear tires, and learning about hydroplaning. On my ride, I would like the gearing lower. Idle in first is a bit too fast, maybe 10 mph or more. I also dont like the engine RPMs at speed. Even at 60-70 mph, the bike sounds smoother and feels smoother in 4th. I tried 5th several times, and never liked the shake. This is my first V twin, so hard to tell what is 'normal'. First bike without a tach too.

The 225/60r15 BFG's overfill the wheelwell, and that is a cool look, but I am debating getting a 225/50 or 45 even. Have yet to go out with a beer and tape measure to see, but I prolly wouldnt mind losing 2-3 inches total height,but keep the width. Get my gearing down 10% or more. And there are some serious rain-channeling tread patterns in those sizes.

Of course, I need to to a valve adjustment before passing judgement. Sounds 'ticky/clacky' up front after it warms up, and I dont feel both cylinders are pulling equally. In Aircooled VW, and Honda utility engines, it is an important maintenance item. Be willing to bet this bike was never set, or long ago. Just gotta pull the seat and tank to do it, so i want to co-ordinate that with a new battery and remove/replace the LED lighting under the tank. Little bit cheezy the way it is, but I do like the idea and look of ground lighting.

 

[CrystalPistol]

My change from 245/60R15 to 215/70R15 resulted in a tread 1" narrower (so I made my spacers) and 4 pounds lost weight per tire (28 vs 24 pounds each), most of it doubtlessly in the narrower tread, that's 8 pounds total off those two big "flywheels" to be spun up to speed and then to be slowed or stopped, and less un-sprung weight to bounce. Not a huge deal, I know. As I recall, the 215/70s were just a couple tenths inch taller than 245/60s were. I think mine is geared with a 3.07:1 rear gear ratio, looks like 3100 RPM @ 63MPH on the speedometer (64 on GPS that day). I think (again?) yours may be more like the 2.97:1 like that was in my '85 T-bird.

Lug pattern on mine is the Ford 4 on 108mm (4.25") pattern used on Pintos, Mustang IIs, Fox Mustangs, Bobcats, even my '85 Thunderbird. I'm guessing yours is 5 on 114.3mm (4.5") circle.

The 6.75" in mine and the 7.5" in yours (my '85 T-bird had a 302 but had the 7.5" rear with 4 lug axles and same 9" drums on back, I sold it after 150,xxx miles) and the larger 8.8" (like in our Grand Marquis or our '08 GT) are integral rears with a cast center section, steel inspection plate on back, plug welded press fit tubes. The number " refers to ring gear diameter. They are shortened in the trikes and greatly under-loaded … but they still need lube to last.

The older Ford rears were the 8"& 9" rears (I think they dated back to 1957, used up into the late '70s anyway and many an overload of firewood was hauled on a F-150 with a 9" rear) with cast pumpkins that dropped out the front of a welded formed sheet steel axle housing. CSC used to use the older 8" rears. Your axles and mine are retained by C clips accessed after draining & removal of the plate, the older 8 & 9 inch rears retained at the bearing end. Sometimes, due to axle shaft dimensions, they can shorten & re-spline axles when shortened, other times they just have new axles made up.

 

[Volkemon]

The 6.75" in mine and the 7.5" in yours (my '85 T-bird had a 302 but had the 7.5" rear with 4 lug axles and same 9" drums on back, I sold it after 150,xxx miles) and the larger 8.8" (like in our Grand Marquis or our '08 GT) are integral rears with a cast center section, steel inspection plate on back, plug welded press fit tubes. The number " refers to ring gear diameter. They are shortened in the trikes and greatly under-loaded … but they still need lube to last.

Yeah...lube... looks like mine is upside down. How do you check rear end lube? (have not searched forum yet, just came to mind and I am in serious holiday cleaning mode with Mrs V. So lucky to even check in.... )

 

[CrystalPistol]

Yeah...lube... looks like mine is upside down. How do you check rear end lube?

Look on the left side of pumpkin (cast center section), see a plug with a square drive hole, takes 3/8" ratchet, back it out and if lubricant comes out, it's full. If none comes out, stick a little finger in or coat hanger and see if level is at bottom of fill hole. I usually use hose on squeeze bottle or a hand fluid pump to pump lube in.

If you want to do a complete drain & fill, gonna need to take rear cover off. There are some hand pumps you can put a small copper tube on and pull the fluid out to change through the fill hole, but that tells you nothing of condition of gears nor does it get particles out.

 

[Jack Klarich]

Look on the left side of pumpkin (cast center section), see a plug with a square drfive hole, takes 3/8" ratchet, back it out and if lubricant comes out, it's full. If none comes out, stick a little finger in or coat hanger and see if level is at bottom of fill hole. I usually use hose on squeeze bottle or a hand fluid pump to pump lube in.

If you want to do a complete drain & fill, gonna need to take rear cover off. There are some hand pumps you can put a small copper tube on and pull the fluid out to change through the fill hole, but that tells you nothing of condition of gears nor does it get particles out.

If your cover has a magnet , clean it and reinstall it

 

[Volkemon]

Busy 2 days, have not been under to verify.

I am aware that there is a plug, and it is the level for when the rearend is right side up.

I read else where that when the rear is 'flipped' or inverted, you cant use that anymore because it is too high. It was mentioned that the rearend needed to be drained, then filled with a specific volume, with that volume usually available from the manufacturer.

HOPEFULLY class is over early today, and I get some trike time. 'Eyeball' the fill plug level. Thanks for the replies!

 

[CrystalPistol]

I am aware that there is a plug, and it is the level for when the rearend is right side up.

I read else where that when the rear is 'flipped' or inverted, you cant use that anymore because it is too high. It was mentioned that the rearend needed to be drained, then filled with a specific volume, with that volume usually available from the manufacturer.

Oh yeah, I forgot some kits have to flip it due to output shaft rotation, sorry. Guess I was maybe thinking GL1500s & Valkyries, but yeah,yours is a VTX (but you knew that). I know it works to correct the rotation (so as to not have 5 speed reverse and no forward gears), but I do wonder how well the pinion shaft bearings get lubed. I guess that a drain & specific volume refill is the only way to "know" then. Maybe after doing a refill that you know is right, be a good time to make yourself a gage to "stick the level" via fill plug hole, something you can stick in and see a lube level on?

 

[Volkemon]

Still a steel diffy cover on it....might be a good thing to keep.

I may have to flush it, find/determine the correct amount, then braze a bung at the right level on the steel cover. :Shrug:

Looking at the goldwing manual, it looks as if the axle is right side up. Looking at the picture, using the fill plug as a level would be too high. I still didnt look at mine, as i was racing the rain to get pics of my new trike cover.

Look on the left side of pumpkin (cast center section), see a plug with a square drive hole, takes 3/8" ratchet, back it out and if lubricant comes out, it's full. If none comes out, stick a little finger in or coat hanger and see if level is at bottom of fill hole.

Manual for GW says you should refill 1/4-9/16 below the fill plug. Also states 3.3 pints. If I hadn't read that, I would have agreed with you. That is the 'norm'. Perhaps they have it rotated the pinion up a bit from 'stock', and if you fill to edge it is overfull?

I need a manual for my kit. Gonna call MT tomorrow....heck, check the website and see if they are open first :Santa: .. and see about getting one.

Posting pics of my new cover over on my other thread - https://www.triketalk.com/forum/threads/55731-2006-Motortrike-vtx1800-might-be-my-next-ride

 

[Jack Klarich]

You can drill a hole in the cover and use a soft rubber push in plug like Chrysler used for years

Like this one

 

[Volkemon]

But...But... thats so simple and easy! No fire!

Thanks. That is a VERY practical solution. Just make sure I de-burr the hole well. I seem to remember they went in a stamped hole with a lip, but thats a memory from way back...

Got the other shoes today, Wagner 'Quickstop' Z474R. I sanded the lining lightly with the same 180 paper for the pic.



The other shoes had a 'big specks' in the lining - looked like there were spatters of paint. This one appears to be a much finer silvery speckle.

The ten digit number, and the WE-XXX-XX number was different too. MAYBE one is a date code, one a lining code? I wish... Maybe message Wagner marketing with a nice note..

Existing numbers -

WE-169-EE and 6610713715

New shoes -

WE-157-EE and 6611002821

:Shrug: Who knows. Back in the box for now.

 

[CrystalPistol]

Looking at the goldwing manual, it looks as if the axle is right side up. Looking at the picture, using the fill plug as a level would be too high. I still didnt look at mine, as i was racing the rain to get pics of my new trike cover.

If the axle is right side up with a low pinion, the fill plug is correct. If the axle is up side down or flipped, it's probably off somewhat.

Manual for GW says you should refill 1/4-9/16 below the fill plug. Also states 3.3 pints.

What you quoted of mine was what I wrote before I realized yours was maybe flipped, so ignor what I wrote then. That fill was right for an axle that was right side up …

… but the VTX 1800 bike has the driveshaft & pinion to the left of ring gear in the final drive so they have to flip it to keep the trike going forwards as cars and pick ups (that I've seen up close) have the pinion gear on the right side of the ring gear. GoldWing bikes also have the drive shaft & pinion to the right side of ring gear, so no flipping is needed with a GoldWing.

You mention "goldwing manual" and then again "Manual for GW", hope it's not a Honda book because they wouldn't write about an up side down Ford 7.5" rear in a trike. The picture in a Goldwing book of Motor Trike origin would show a rear in right side up attitude. Your trike is a VTX, a right side up car rear end will have you going 5 speeds backwards unless there is a reversing box or "gear" box between the former bike's output shaft and the rear end, and seems I recall mention of some trikes having a box in place.

Clearly, you either have a "reversing box" or you have a flipped rear axle, I don't know which.

I have Motor Trike manual, but it's for a Gold Wing so it's of no help with a VTX based trike. Here is a ChampionSideCars manual though, but on a VTX1800, might help to show how they did it?http://championsidecars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Honda-VTX-1800-Instl-Manual_Rev5.pdf

As to drains in stamped steel pans, covers. I weld a 1/2-20 nut to a steel with smaller bolts to secure inside, drill holes in cover to match and use a 1/2-20 drain bolt. This one is in a transmission pan.

 

[Volkemon]

You mention "goldwing manual" and then again "Manual for GW", hope it's not a Honda book because they wouldn't write about an up side down Ford 7.5" rear in a trike. The picture in a Goldwing book of Motor Trike origin would show a rear in right side up attitude.

I have Motor Trike manual, but it's for a Gold Wing so it's of no help with a VTX based trike.

As to drains in stamped steel pans, covers. I weld a 1/2-20 nut to a steel with smaller bolts to secure inside, drill holes in cover to match and use a 1/2-20 drain bolt. This one is in a transmission pan.

The manual I was referring to is for a goldwing with a motortrike conversion. I wasnt thinking clearly either, and now realize you dont have a motortrike conversion. As Gilda said... 'Never Mind!' :laugh:

The Mototrtrike goldwing manual IS very helpful to me, even with a VTX. Evidently most of the suspension setup is the same.

I usually just get a 1/4 or 3/8 NPT bung and braze it on. then drill hole. But I really like Jacks KISS solution with the rubber plug. I tend to overthink things...

THANKS for the other link! Might have some wisdom for me. :clapping:

 

[Jack Klarich]

Randy, in the rust belt we serviced lots of rear grease seals on interlocking axles. The first order for me was to always try to remove the filler plug. As you can already guess this sometimes did not go well. If I had one ( and I had Many) that did not come out I would drill the cover and use the Mopar rubber plug. It worked like a charm. Doorman part number 090-062

 

[CrystalPistol]

Randy, in the rust belt we serviced lots of rear grease seals on interlocking axles. The first order for me was to always try to remove the filler plug. As you can already guess this sometimes did not go well. If I had one ( and I had Many) that did not come out I would drill the cover and use the Mopar rubber plug. It worked like a charm. Doorman part number 090-062

I can see it being great for heavy bodied rear end lube … but not hot transmission fluid! Thank you Sir (for idea & pt #)!

I bet it makes a mess when the drill breaks through?:laugh:​

 

[Volkemon]

Maybe, but mess for me was forever defined while working at a cheapa** truck shop. Owner was too cheap to get a 20 gal roll around oil pan, 5 gal buckets were fine. For him. He didnt have do the job.

1 1/2 NPT drain plug, hot oil... disaster was switching buckets. Often trucks had 10+ gallon capacity. We went through bags of speedy dry. DO NOT miss that place.

**

Unless I get a better answer after the 6th when Motortrike opens, Planning on determining the level by having the outer seal lips just above the oil level when level.

'Slosh' when cornering should be fine for supplying the bearings, and the ring will hopefully fling enough oil up on the pinion bearing. I will see if it is amenable to adding a dipper/slinger on the ring gear bolt to increase the circulation cheap and easy. So lightly loaded, should not be a concern.

 

[Jack Klarich]

Maybe, but mess for me was forever defined while working at a cheapa** truck shop. Owner was too cheap to get a 20 gal roll around oil pan, 5 gal buckets were fine. For him. He didnt have do the job.

1 1/2 NPT drain plug, hot oil... disaster was switching buckets. Often trucks had 10+ gallon capacity. We went through bags of speedy dry. DO NOT miss that place.

**

Unless I get a better answer after the 6th when Motortrike opens, Planning on determining the level by having the outer seal lips just above the oil level when level.

'Slosh' when cornering should be fine for supplying the bearings, and the ring will hopefully fling enough oil up on the pinion bearing. I will see if it is amenable to adding a dipper/slinger on the ring gear bolt to increase the circulation cheap and easy. So lightly loaded, should not be a concern.

When ever I serviced a rear end like this I would park it on a side slope equal times on both sides, that way the lube could run down the axle tube and lube the bearings